Yeah, there's no doubt that A Legendary Ocean has quite a few possible combos to be used with it. Cards like Amphibious Bugroth, Mermaid Knight, and even The Legendary Fisherman are all great to use when it's out. Attacking directly with Bugroth could win the match in only a few turns - or possibly just one turn if you've got multiple Bugroths out and you use Limiter Removal. Ouch! Mermaid Knight's double atack could be particularly brutal if you equip it with an ATK booster like Axe of Despair. And even the much-overlooked Fisherman could be useful if you've got Spirit Barrier or Tornado Wall out as backup.

But also consider the power that Umiiruka could afford to a Water deck not necessarily looking to focus on the traditionally "Umi"-oriented cards that seem to characterize Water. Mother Grizzly could become a 1900 ATK monster that searches for another monster after it's destroyed. Fenrir, too, gets its ATK boosted to 1900 so it could be effective in stopping your opponent's draw and locking them down. Mobius the Frost Monarch gets its ATK boosted to a monstrous 2900 and you get to destroy 2 spell/trap cards when he's summoned. But of course you've got to be careful when using Umiiruka, since if one of your monsters gets shifted to defense mode via Book of Moon or otherwise they'll likely die to just about anything.

I think both ALO and Umiiruka have their own niches of usefulness. A Legendary Ocean is great for getting tributes out easily and making use of the "Umi" monsters, while Umiiruka could easily enable Water monsters to overpower opponents' monsters.

Hello WATER thread. I've been out of the loop for a long minute because of some other stuff during the past couple of weeks. But back to business.

I'm not sure if some of you've read through the other threads or decks in the depot, but sometimes psych cards are inserted into decks for bluffing purposes or as a scare tactic. It's not new, but often forgotten.

One I see in many decks is Wave Motion Cannon. However, WATER decks do have the advantage in that there are so many different continuous cards that will cripple an opponent (Level Limit B, Gravity Bind, A Legendary Ocean, etc), Wave Motion Cannon is not needed.

And as for the Umiruka/ALO debate, most often ALO is better. The fact Umiruka boosts ATK so that any monster is a beat stick does not mean as much as ALO does to a WATER deck since any mosnter can be taken care of with Smashing Ground, Exiled Force, Newdoria, Ekibyo Drakmord, etc. So many WATER monsters and WATER support out there, on the other hand, rely on the "Umi" effect of ALO, while also benefiting from the increase ATK and DEF In regards to the alternative, what monsters rely on Umiruka? Very few:

Des Frog
Mobius
Gogiga Gagagigo

And it's only these because Des Frog has 0 DEF, and the 500 ATK boost puts Des Frog in the standard tribute class of Mobius, Jinzo, and the like. Mobius has 1000 DEF, which can already be beaten by Tsukuyomi, so the decrease means little. Gogiga is at 8 stars and has a really high ATK, so an extra 500 ATK would be great.

However, any other WATER monster can be severly affected by the decrease in DEF. In addition, ALO provides more benefits, which as we all know means more than just ATK.

Points taken. You definitely seem to know what you're talking about.

Here's another idea to think about. Could introducing either Mind Crush or D.D. Designator to a bounce-oriented Water deck make for a good addition? If so, which one would be preferable over the other?

I believe it could work in various situations given the right support. Here's a few examples:

1) You attack your opponent's face-down card and it turns out to be a Sangan. He searches his deck for his D.D. Warrior Lady. After you finish conducting your Battle Phase, you play D.D. Designator to target the D.D. Warrior Lady to remove it from the game and see what else your opponent's got up his sleeve.

2) Your opponent tributes a monster to summon Airknight Parshath. You reveal your face-down Compulsory Evacuation Device to promptly return the Airknight to your opponent's hand, then activate Mind Crush to destroy it (or wait until your next turn to play a D.D. Designator and eliminate it).

3) You open up the duel by placing a Nightmare Penguin face-down. Your opponent, during his turn, attacks it and the Penguin's effect bounces it back to your opponent's hand. During your turn, you activate D.D. Designator to eliminate the monster that the Penguin bounced and get an idea of what other monsters your opponent might summon during his next turn so that you can plan accordingly.

4) You play Confiscation or activate Spiritual Water Art and take a look at your opponent's hand. You discard one of the cards in his hand with Confiscation's effect, then get rid of another one with D.D. Designator or Mind Crush (possibly multiple cards if Mind Crush).

As for which one over the other, each has a particular advantage over the other. Mind Crush can be activated at any time, meaning that if your opponent uses a card like Reinforcement of the Army you can activate it immediately and eliminate the card in question before they get a chance to play it. It can also knock out multiple cards with its effect instead of just one. D.D. Designator can't be used at any time, but it eliminates the card in question (barring any D.D. doings :)) permanently.

So, what do you think?

Crossfire, those are exact reasons that water needs more people to focus on them. With these kind of tactics, is there another deck that should be able to stand up to it? I don't think so, and yet, when was the last time anyone saw a water deck in top 8 of a major tourny.

I haven't been playing lately, as I have the don't wanna play any tcg flu right now, but I think water has the capability of being the most dominant control deck out there, for all of the reasons you just stated. However, there is only so much space in a deck, and how do you fit it all into one deck. That has been my basic problem with constructing my water decks. So much to do, that it generally doesn't fit, and there in lies my only real complaint about water. You have to leave so much on the editing room floor, that in essence, not matter what, you are left with a second tier deck, which sucks!!! I so want to either see, pilot, or both a water deck to top 8 in a major tourny.

I CALL THIS : WATERMANIA!

Take this as an example: OJAMA TOKENS trap card lets you set 3 ojamas on opponent´s side of the field (also not letting opponent use their entire field), and if you use one HYDROGGEON (Elemental Energy packs) and destroy pass one token, you automatically call upon your deck to special summon another HYDROGGEON (since bottomless traphole or torrential tribute cannot be activated during damage step) you CAN continue attacking 1 more time (thus destroying another token, hence calling another HYDROGEON) and continuing the attack. Not to mention these roaring dinosaurs can be behind Legendary Ocean and Gravity bind, it´s a huge advantage to have such abilities to swarm the field with monsters. Also you have CREEPING doom manta, who at normal summon on main phase doesn´t allow trap cards to be active (jinzo for 1 whole turn). Not to mention Amphibious MK can attack with 1700 directly to opponent´s life points (wear it with Mage power and you´ll see your opponent´s looser face inmidiately).

And if you´re wandering how to stall your opponent after he destroyed your g-binds, stop him with swords of revealing light, Limit level area -B.

While along, play a bacteria (AMEBA - MRL) and pass it over your opponent with creature swap for a blasting 2000 LP damage.

Not to mention there is a Jinzo on Water type of it´s own: MOEBIUS THE FROST MONARCH. If you got no time to tribute summon?, use SOUL EXCHANGE for a tribute summon using oppoinent´s monster. All though you won´t attack that turn, you´ve managed to release your opponent´s 2 magic or trap card that were stopping you from a final assault with Familiar possed ERIA (1850 ATK straight to the Defense of any remains of opponent´s monster).

And those are just the basics. You can put UMIRUKA on the field, reinsing 500 ATK points to all water types. We could go on with the list.

BASIC RULE on WATER TYPES:

Magic Cards Water Staples:

Terraforming
A legendary ocean x2
Umiruka
Limit Level Area B

Trap Cards Water Staples
G-Bind x 2
Ocean Columns (or something: they don´t let you take damage when UMI is active)

Water Monster Staples:
Moebius the frost Monarch
Mermaid Knight
Levia Dragon
Amphibiuous Burgoth MK
Aqua Lady (transforms the field into UMI).

Or you can use one of nastiest combos on water or any kind of g-bin based deck: DARK SNAKE SINDROME (LON) and DES WOMBAT (TLM packs). While Dark snake sindrome is downgrading at double damage (200, 400, 800, 1600, 3200, game over....) you will suffer no damage and also your Water Type monsters will destroy any remaining LP.

Now that´s just basics pal....

You can create a huge possibilities with the water dragons and elemental (SOD) monsters....

1. Tokens will NOT allow Hydrogeddon to use its effect because you must actually send the monster to the graveyard...Tokens do not go to the graveyard...

2. Creeping Doom Manta only works on Traps for when it's summoned (Trap Hole, Torrential Tribute, etc). It DOES NOT act like a Jinzo for a turn...

3. Eria must be brought out by Eria the Water Charmer to have its trample effect.

4. Level Limit - Area B and Gravity Bind are NOT "staples" for a Water Deck. Only a Water Deck that focuses on Stall and level 3 or lower monster's. Tornado Wall isn't that great either which is why you hardly see it around.

I hope you are not using Tornado Wall and Gravity Bind in the same deck? That's a waste of a deck spot if you were, especially since, as was said by Strife, there are so many other WATER cards that can be in a WATER deck, it's sick. It's like E-heros, except cheaper to build.

Let's not let this thread die...there's so much to talk about! Here's a few bits of food for thought. Some of them may have been discussed in previous posts, but keep in mind that the ban list has changed since many of those posts were authored.


1) What is Mother Grizzly's rightful place in a Water deck? Yeah, I know that using searchers is pretty much standard fare today but realize that in most decks Mother Grizzly's ability to search has a limited usefulness. What are some of its possible targets in your average water deck?

*Amphibious Bugroth and Mermaid Knight. These two are great to be able to summon, but ONLY if A Legendary Ocean is out.
*Penguin Soldier and other weaker Water monsters like it with flip effects could be summoned, but then you wouldn't get to use their effects.
*Neo Aqua Madoor could be summoned, but you had better have a way to change it into defense mode or else it's going to get squashed. Not many decks seem to run it.
*I guess you could summon another Mother Grizzly with varying usefulness depending on the situation.

So, then, what is Mother Grizzly's role in a Water deck? Given its limited usefulness, should two be run instead of three? Or one? Or none at all? Would Sangan be a better alternative since the monster it searches for doesn't have to be a Water monster?



2) Many people seem to say that Hydrogeddon would be good for Water decks because it can swarm easily. But is it really all that it's cracked up to be in a deck that doesn't utilize Water Dragon?

Getting out a Hydrogeddon early on in a match could be extremely beneficial - especially if you've got A Legendary Ocean out to boost its ATK points to 1800, giving it a good amount of punch. I'm sure that everyone knows how deadly a Creature Swap could be if you swap a Mother Grizzly with one of your opponent's monsters and then destroy the Grizzly with your Hydrogeddon. If played well and supported adequately, Hydrogeddon can generate an incredible amount of field advantage. If only its effect worked with tokens!

So it's true that Hydrogeddon could swarm if it's given the right opportunity - but keep in mind that the current environment is one that's very focused on removal. If three Hydrogeddons are run and two are eliminated, the last one is essentially useless and only serves as a mediocre attacker. It would also seem to be less useful later in a match when your opponent likely has stronger monsters out that are capable of fending off Hydrgeddons' attempts at swarming. Not that a particularly strong monster would need to be used to take down a Hydrogeddon, keep in mind; any of the many 1800+ ATK monsters out there could walk all over it and even with ALO out all that Hydrogeddon could hope to do is have enough strength to kamikaze itself into one of these monsters.

Hydrogeddon serves a very specific purpose - but does it do it well enough to be included in your average water deck or is it best off left to a Water Dragon deck?



3) Lekunga is an odd monster that is often completely left out of Water discussions because, apparently, its effect isn't often thought to be any good (although its ATK strength isn't all that bad). True, its effect isn't going to break any games but can you think of any fun little uses it might have for a casual Water deck? I can think of one particular, oddly specific scenario where it might have a use. It could be used later in a match when you've gone through plenty of monsters in conjunction with Creature Swap and Return from the Different Dimension to set up a tidal wave of damage.

Remove Mobius and Daedalus from the graveyard with Lekunga's effect, generate a token. Swap the token with your opponent's ____, repeat if necessary. Play Return from the Different Dimension to bring back the monsters and run over your opponent's tokens and other monsters.

Or even if you're not going to use it in conjunction with Return from the Different Dimension you could still use it to remove monsters you have no intention of reviving, I suppose, for a sort of modified Token control.



4) Water is an element that has an awful lot of good tribute monsters. What do you think is the optimal tribute lineup? Can decks with ALO safely run multiple copies of of tributes like Giga Gagagigo that can be summoned for free with ALO out, or is it better to play it safe and go with the "less is more" approach? A few brief blurbs on the various Water tributes...

Mobius the Frost Monarch, if it isn't the crown jewel of Water tributes, is a darned close runner-up for second place. Its effect is simply incredible and it's seen widespread use even among non-water decks. With A Legendary Ocean out, he becomes a 2600 ATK powerhouse that takes down up to two spells or traps when he comes out. Mobius combos well with Soul Exchange.

Giga Gagagigo (and his weaker counterpart, Terrorking Salmon) can be summoned for free if A Legendary Ocean is out and that's why many people like him. Jae Kim, for example, posted an article over at Metagame.com with Giga Gagagigo as one of his Water deck's primary beasts of burden in the damage department. Although it lacks any sort of an effect, bringing out a 2650 ATK monster for free can easily do a world of good for you in almost any matchup.

B.E.S. Crystal Core can be summoned for free as well with A Legendary Ocean out, and although its lifespan is limited to only a few battles. On the plus side, its ATK points are fairly high and its counters don't get removed if it attacks your opponent's lifepoints directly. It can also change your opponent's monsters to defense position which can be helpful to deal with tributes. If it runs out of counters, you can always bounce it back to your hand and play it again for a fresh set of three.

Levia-Dragon Daedalus's effect is a mix of Heavy Storm and Dark Hole with a very convenient twist; it leaves itself alive amidst the chaos, providing you with the chance to strike an instant deathblow at your opponent's lifepoints if he's got 2600 or less. Even if your opponent still has most of his lifepoints, Daedalus's ability can be devastating and its ATK points are nothing to scoff at.

The Legendary Fisherman is an old school tribute that seems to have all but completely lost its popularity. Why? Well, probably because its ATK points are on the low side for a Tribute and if it's the only monster on your side of the field then your opponent can attack you directly. Still, his Spell immunity can come in handy in certain situations. If you've got A Legendary Ocean out and play Dark Hole, the Fisherman still stands and he can strike for a deathblow if your opponent's low on life.

And, last but not least, Suijin. I don't think anyone's ever really given Suijin a chance, which strikes me as particularly strange given the odd fascination by many with Sakuretsu Armor's effect. What could be better than a monster whose effect is essentially a Sakuretsu Armor with a bite? Your opponent wouldn't dare attack it with a lower monster since it'd be destroyed by Suijin's high ATK points, but if he sends a strong monster against it then he's liable to bury himself alive with the damage or at the very least strike a critical blow against himself while losing advantage in the process.

Oh man, you missed my favorite application of Mother Grizzly. Skill Drain/Water to search for Yomi Ship/Grizzlies

The advantage that can be brought back around with Salvage is sickening.

I think probably the best combo cards to use in a water deck are not water cards at all. One is Last Will and the other......drumroll......ultimate offering. I think this can be the most prolific performer in a water deck. can't be chained to with Royal Decree, unless you activate it on your turn. But it helps the swarm of the water deck, which it really needs to do.

Nothing from anyone? Alright, here's a simple question...

In an ALO deck, would it be more beneficial to run Giga Gagagigo or B.E.S. Crystal Core?

Giga Gagagigo has some incredible ATK points when it's summoned - for free, no less - with A Legendary Ocean out. It could squash most monsters easily barring any removal. B.E.S. Crystal Core can also be summoned for free, but its ATK points aren't nearly as high and its lifespan is somewhat limited (though this can be circumvented by bouncing it back to your hand). On the upside, it can't be destroyed in battle and it's able to change the position of your opponents' monsters from ATK to DEF.

Id go with B.E.S. Crystal Core, hands down, regardless of a monster have a huuuuuge Atk, without some nice effect to back it up, it is pretty much a beatstick that can very well backfire at you.

I think it just really depends on which way you are going with it. If you are going towards a beatdown type water deck, definitely, go with the Giga. However, if you are going more towards the can't be destroyed in battle route, then probably your best bet is to go all Core, and use cards like Mech Support. Actually, this may not be a bad idea anyway. Also, you will need other Core support cards, like the continous card Boss Rush. This is especially help full if they don't have the spell/trap removal, but they decide to use a card like smashing ground, or some other form of monster removal. Granted, it is a bit situational, but it can help set up Levia with ALO. Just a thought.

but wat ppl are forgettin is the control of the hand, yes, u can put down this and that, but most pros already plan for u to attack, there has to be a way to keep ur hand ready for anything. personally, i used judgement of anubis to just destroy a monster wen he tried to get rid of alo. ill post my deck later.

Thing is...most pros will get rid of your Magic and Trap Cards BEFORE summoning (or have a monster they can afford to lose) a monster...so...Judgment of Anubis would be sort of pointless most of the time (basically just a far more specific Magic Jammer)