we may be looking at different things then but the last post from normalview was the one above.

"at least, how I would rule it" is quite different from "this is my opinion and not necessarily an official ruling."

You're kidding right? Anything they say pertaining to rules should be an official ruling. Unless overturned by another member of the rules posse. Thus, they came out with "the latest interpretation taking precedent over all others before it."

Certain opinions they give on how they would run certain things at a tournament is just that... an opinion. But, rule interpretations are another thing... those are official and we should respect them as such.

edit:
they don't discuss things with us because they need to discuss it within themselves first before releasing any kind of ruling to the public. ... not because people take their opinions as official....besides any kind of opinion on rules from a rules deputy should be official.

Actually that's exactly how I read "at least, how I would rule it." To me that says this is not an official answer, but at my venue I would rule it this way.

Not kidding at all. I believe that the rules posse can interact and discuss rules with us just like any of us can. They can express opinions without those opinions being considered official rulings. I just think when they do that, they need to make it clear. That said, in my opinion normalview made that clear. I can see this being frustrating, though, for the rules posse. Based on what you've said, I get the impression that you don't think they can have that kind of interaction with us. And it also seems they really need to stress when they are just making an opinion.

Just my opinion:
Normalview shouldn't have to say "this is how I would rule it at my venue" He is a rules deputy for chrisakes. What he says pertaining to rules is official at all venues.

I believe he says that because in the past there have been differences on how another rules deputy would do it. And then, they talk it over and an official ruling comes out.

Rules deputies are only human and it does look bad on them when there are differences in opinion between them. At the same time, it is also important for us to get an answer fast.

My suggestion to rules deputies when there is a difference in opinion, don't post it online contradicting what the other one said. Take it offline, come to an agreement and have him post a correction to his ruling if necessary.

They are always just making an opinon. Its just a really, really, really informed opinioin.

Anything said on HcRealms is NOT "Official".
Despite what some people think, Printing out a thread with up and down posts by Norm does not overrule the Head Judges interpretations of the rulebook and PG.

If they want to make it an "Official" rule they put it in the PG.

Still though when these guys give you their opinion, you can pretty much believe thats the way it will likely be ruled if you went to a big Con.

Asking as a judge, the Orange Guys are a great way to get a solid interpretation on a rules question filled with insight and reasoning.

But asking as a player, if you want to get an "Official" Answer that has weight, the only way you can get an accurate answer is to discuss the rule beforehand with YOUR actual Head Judge of the event.

hah, that is quite true... because the head judge is the be all and see all at the event. Discussing it with the head judge beforehand helps you know how a certain ruling will go if the situation ever came up.

But I think sometimes they want to say this is how I rule it at my venue, but it is not the official rule. I think that is what normalview was trying to get across in his post. At least as of his posting, there was no official opinion.

I agree. Opinion isn't the right word. Rather there are official ruling posts and not official ruling posts. I think normalview's post above was a not official ruling post.

I completely disagree. The HeroClixComprehensive Tournament Rules clearly make many of the postings on HCRealms official.

The Player's Guide is just as official as a forum post in that regard. No matter what the rules say, the head judge controls interpretation. If the head judge doesn't want to follow the Player's Guide, the head judge doesn't follow the Player's Guide. There is no difference between the two.

And my whole point was, I don't think normalview was saying that this is the way it will be ruled at a big Con. It may end up being ruled that way, but I don't think normalview was saying you should necessarily expect that.

Again, that's true of everything. If the head judge thinks flyers can carry flyers then guess what happens. I think it's silly to discuss rules in a...what is my local judge going to say kind of way. If I want to know that, I'll ask my local judge. The point of the rules forum is...how will WizKids rule on this issue. And that's what I look to the rules forum for. If we're just going to focus on the local judge, the rules forum is pointless.

What you seem to want is impossible. It might have worked in a time before special powers, before maps with special rules, before feats and BFCs, but we're way past that now.

If answers from experts requires a 100% certainty that the answers are always consistent and correct, I would submit that these forums are not the means by which to acquire those answers. You should use [email protected]. What's the difference?

Here on the forums, you've got 4 people with "orange tint" supplying answers. We are different people. We see things differently sometimes. I can point to 2 or 3 special powers in the last few sets where, when a ruling came up, 2 of us thought one way and 2 another. And we missed it in review because it was "obvious" to all of us how it worked. So here in the forums, you'll get inconsistency due to the number of different people involved.

By using the email address, you will get one answer. That answer will be right as possible given what's known at the time. However, a question that requires discussion will either get a reply back that there will be a follow up or the reply will come days later.

On the forums, you'll probably get an answer within a few minutes. There is a reasonable chance that it will be one of the four of us, but in truth, there are lots of folks in the community capable of providing right answers.

I'll also point out here that people sometimes lose sight of how the deputy position started. Here's the first post about it:


In conclusion, if this doesn't suit you, I hear you, but the alternative methods I can visualize all require we "tinted" ones scale back on posting and only provide answers that we know the four of us agree on. That seems too inefficient to be a good service to the community.

Thats not what I read in the HCTR:

HCTR 1.1
It says PG rulings are official.

Where does it say HcRealms Forums rulings are official?

From the HCTR 1.1.1
I agree they are legitimate forms of rules communication, but as a head judge I would never take a Forum printout as anything other then an opinion. You lack context if you havent read the whole thread. Nor as a judge are you required to read all the threads in HcRealms.

Bear in mind the context here is also:
From the HCTR 1.1.1
I disagree the Rules Form answers questions to people who have a question Outside of a tournament.

Furthermore, its a great way for a Judge to ask a question. The Orange Guys generally do far more then just give an answer to a rules question. They also explain why they would rule the way they do. Its the reasoning the Orange Guys give that is far more valuable then the actual ruling they make.

The Orange Guys are really just a community service to help judges and players understand the rules better.

When normalview or Harpua or Q gives you their opinion whether its official are not it helps us understand the rules better and it helps me to make a better ruling even if the ruling I make ultimately disagrees with the ruling normalview would make.

We're just going to have to disagree about the purpose of the rules forum. Although, again, this shows why it can be a dangerous place for the rules posse.

No, that's not what I want. What I'm saying is that the "orange tint" are only human and that there will be differences in opinion. What looks bad is when someone posts something and another contradicts it on the forums.

Yes, holding back is too inefficient. People want and they should get answers fast.

The gist of what I'm saying is, when one of the RAs posts a reply, it would be better for another RA who thinks differently to discuss that offline rather than posting his or her opinion contradicting the other RA.

Then, when something is agreed upon, make another posting from that same RA correcting the previous post. That way, it doesn't look like one RA is better than the other.

An RA shouldn't have to tone down his statement with "it is how I would rule it at my venue." You're the RA, that's official for all venues. Now, if after offline discussions with other RAs you find that your interpretation was incorrect, then simply make a post notifying us about the correction. We understand... y'all are only human.

If a judge cant make a ruling until an Orange Guy makes an "official" ruling, then IMO that judge is not doing his job.

Really, what more do you want from the Orange Guys?:

• They give you great insight into the rules.
• They answer questions that have been asked a million times
• They are more then willing to explain their answers
• They teach why they interpret the rules the way they do.
• They give you all the meat to the rule you need to know in order to make your own call.
• And they are fine if you interpret the rule different then they do, even when its an "official" rule.
• They briing important questions to GD (who are the real "official answers")
• And they do their best to give us a PG that answers the tough questions.

As a judge all you have to do is listen to the Orange guys, discuss opinions with them, contemplate the thoughts they give you to work with, and make a decision.

In practice this hasn't worked out too well. When that happens the incorrect information usually gets spread around and its only much later that we learn the original rules posse post was incorrect. (Very rarely is a correction ever posted for whatever reason.) In my opinion, I'd much rather that the rules posse alert us to the disagreement so we can be mindful that it's being discussed. Otherwise the original post ends up standing as the official ruling and leads to more confusion.

You and I see the rules posse very differently. What I'd like is clear answers. I actually don't need promptness like some have suggested. I don't mind waiting for them to discuss and work out an answer. That said, there are some outstanding questions going back to July and I do think that's a little too long to be waiting on an answer.

At an event, I expect the head judge to make a ruling. That is the purpose of the head judge. I don't think a head judge needs the rules posse to tell them an official answer before the judge can rule. But I'd also like the head judge to be able to come here and follow up on that ruling after the event to find out the correct ruling.

From your posts I think you look to the rules posse as advisors. They say this is the official way and then you as a head judge decide whether to follow their advise or rule differently. My viewpoint is that a head judge should follow the official rules to the best of their ability. And that's why I look to the rules forum as a way to find out the official rules.

Why? You dont see value in the contradicting opinion. I do. Sometimes the rules have more then one valid or reasonable interpretation.

Just for a little historical perspective:

When I signed up as a Envoy WK sent me a document called the WK Approved Play Comprehensive Rules. Which I had to agree to if I wanted to become an envoy.

Back then that document required me to be active in the WK Judge Only forum. Plenty of things were discussed there.

But at the same time there were plenty of rulings being discussed here on HcRealms. Many of them were difinitely good rulings and normalview and Harpua were doing great jobs answering rules questions long before they got an Orange sticker.

But as a judge I wasnt required to be constantly reading the HcRealms post. I dont think thats changed, which is exactly why you cant expect a forum ruling to be "official". Its a rules communication tool for those that have access to HcRealms. Expecting more then that is not a fair expectation just because HcRealms survived the hiatus of WK.