I agree someone can play to win and not caring about if you win or not in the end. Most games i do !
I disagree that someone can only play to win every game, since i've given example of games i've played and not trying to win at all.
I agree that most games, I at least "try" to win, most but not ALL. And specifically, i will not stricly be there to win or indulge in team building or strategies that are no fun in order to win.

Wait...so is there a rule on passing?

In my opinion, it's not that people "don't play to win". But there is a difference in people in the WAY that they enjoy themselves. Some people are playing a game to compete. Period. If you ain't winning, you ain't having fun.

There are other means by which one is motivated to play (games in general, HeroClix specifically).

I can remember a friend of mine explaining to me how he was going to use Commissioner Gordon from Arkham Asylum when that set released. his team included Gordon and a ton of Bat-folk, all centered around the idea that he could "Call in the Bat" and surprise the heck out of you. How'd that team do? Not well. But during the course of the tournament, he pulled off "Call in the Bat" twice, so at the post-game dinner, all he could talk about was that he got to pull off the move he wanted. he got his rear handed to him in EVERY game, but he was in a better mood than the 3-0 player.

Another friend like to play generic armies. Again, he plays to win. He designs teams to be good. But if he isn't using generics, he isn't happy. I've often commented to him that I think he gets more fun out of the army building than the game play itself. His response? "Oh, no. Not at all. I know I'm going to lose more often than I win, but I can't play teams like ____. They don't feel right and they aren't fun."

So in the one camp you have folks that "just want to win" and use all the tools at their disposal to get there. There are lots of people who don't want to be associated with that category. They want to be known for the "fun" they bring to the game (which is just as valid as the winning guys' fun). In our binary world, that ends up with people thinking they "don't want to win, so why bother playing", but if that's your question, you're not "getting it." They'd love to win. But that's not what gives them the good feeling inside.

As I mentioned, there is a big distinction in caring about winning, and trying to win. I can try to win, but still not care if I win or lose.

I never said playing like a cut-throat. I said playing to win. This does not require efficient or optimal moves. It simply requires one to attack his opponent, and to defend his own force.

You are entitled to your opinion, here. However, this doesn't change the fact that playing the game means trying to win.

How often does stalling, turtling, or passing disrupt your home games and cause the game to be less fun?

None of my own, yet, but I interact with kids a lot. In fact, I teach Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu to children, which is a fairly good analogue to the point you're trying to make.

When I roll with the kids (or even my adult students, for that matter), I'm not trying to smash them. I'm not going full-out to win the match. I'll intentionally leave openings in my defense, or I'll intentionally slow my attack, in order to help the students learn when and where to use their techniques. This helps them to learn the game, better.

What I do not do is intentionally lose. I'm still attacking. I'm still trying to "win," though I'm not going at it with great effort. Very often, I'll launch an attack, but leave a glaring escape opportunity for the student. If he doesn't see the escape, I finish the attack, then use the opportunity to teach him about his mistake. I'm not laying down and letting my students practice on me like a rag doll.

Similarly, in HeroClix, while you may not be playing your strongest game, you are still playing to win. You might leave openings, or make inefficient moves, but your opponent-- kid or not-- doesn't want you to just roll over and LET them win. They want you to try to win, at least a little. Otherwise, their own victory would be meaningless.

Stubborn is actually a very decent word to describe me.

The goal of the game is to win. It's a competitive game. That doesn't mean one cares only for winning. However, I have yet to play a game of HeroClix-- even against the fluffiest player I've ever faced-- where the participants were NOT trying to defeat the opponent.

Yep, this. 100%

Again, I'm not talking about people who only care about winning. I understand that people can enjoy the game without winning.

However, when they sit down at the table, regardless of whether or not they care about winning, they are trying to win. They may lose and be perfectly happy with that. But they tried to win the game before they lost.

QFT

To use Norm's example, the Captain Gordon guy may have gone 0-3 and had a ton of happiness for pulling off the maneuver he wanted. If he'd managed to pull that off AND get a win by doing so, his happiness would have been that much higher.

Yes. It is perfectly legal and recommended.

I actually played a game where one player built a team specifically to go against another players team. I played one of them in the first round and played the game per usual. As soon as I heard that the other player Won I fed my opponent enough points so he can win and be close to the other players points.

And yes they did play each other in the second round.

I play for Fun. Sometimes to Win, Sometimes not to Win.

So you are admitting guilt of collusion?

I knew you would be the one to ask. Thanks Harpua!

That's playing to cheat.

No, it did not matter to me which person won between them. There are a lot of friendly rivalries at my venue.
No, its playing to have fun. If the other player Lost, I was already winning and could have easily had them still play each other.

Now if I threw the game in the last round so that my opponent can get the win and the prize, I would consider that cheating.

The simple fact that Owlman reply that makes me want to REP MisterId

Seeing your last post, that's for sure.

I strongly disagree that
We don't play the same game, that is all.

Most victories in heroclix, played my way, are meaningless since they come from the Fairness and Impartiality of dice mostly... But that is true :
I'm not taking my fun during the game from playing winning strategies or "trying" to overcome an opponent. Mostly by hanging out with friends, drinking beer, rolling dice, and see if that batman can overcome that cyclops even if we play completely foolishly...

I guess, (you seem to me rather competitive by nature) we would never understand each others. What you consider universal truth ("this game is about winning") is meaningless and secondary goal to me (i think "this game is about having fun" and i rarely have fun by winning)

Well, i even had times when i won and need really sorry, perhaps even more sorry that the one who lost, because i wanted him to win ; but the dice didn't.

We both live on two different planets, that is all.

I like to look at it in terms of something like video games.

When I play Fallout: New Vegas, the main objective of the game (really ANY single-player video game) is to play through it in the pursuit of a satisfactory ending.

That, however, is not why I play the game. I play it to unwind, get immersed in the world, and take a break from the more serious aspects of my day. That is MY objective.

I dunno. Purposely allowing your opponent to take points in order to assure that he will play against a team he built to defeat could really screw over the person who had his team built against. I can see how a judge would call that cheating.

Thanks, I think?

You sound like you're fun to play with/against. I wish more people had that laid back approach: try to win, but don't live for winning.