This discussion has seemingly devolved into the chewbacca defense stage.

That's your problem, rather than ours. What we've written and what you claim to have seen are two entirely different things.

just refreshing this idea; any takers?

Yeah, what he said. Are there any other Secret Santa dials out there?

Right here you say there isn't a better way followed imediately with "without resorting to..." thus saying there is a better way just that it would result in a special power, or as you put it "pointless pedantry".

Then you swing back, contradicting yourself again, and say he could be made differently, not better.

And the comical part is your absolute statement that it is impossible to make him better than the presented GSX representation. Yes, you did say that when you stated "What there are are a few other, roughly equivalent ways to accurately represent Cyclops. Different, not better (or worse)."

Thus your inability to see that what you deem perfect (if it can't be made better it must be perfect right?) could possibly be made better makes you someone no one can have a discussion with. That at least explains why you think anyone discussing this is stupid...even though you are discussing it.

Makes ya think huh?

Terman8er,

The only problem I have with your arguments is that you've made no case for them. "Cyclops shouldn't have a 4 dmg, but rather a 2 with RCE" is an opinion, not an argument in favor of that opinion. There have been a bevy of solid, comics-related arguments made to support the current dial design. You've merely rejected them out of hand.

For example, my proposal that he lose power over distance, you met with "well he can punch through tough materials," which I hadn't denied, and in fact, had you read the post fully, I described his visor in much the way you proposed.

Regardless of these things, you still fail to present an argument as to way sharpshooter+4 dmg is not as valid as 2dmg+RCE.

And the whole "If you Outwit Sharpshooter, the character should suck up close" argument flies in the face of how the game has worked for years.

If you Outwit the Flash's Hypersonic Speed, his defense should drop like a rock.

If you Outwit the Hulk's Super-Strength, his damage should drop like a rock.

That's essentially what all the anti-4 damage people are arguing. Because it's more or less the same damn thing. Why does the Flash have such a high defense? His Hypersonic Speed. Why does the Hulk dish out so much damage? Because of his Super-Strength.

I have never said Cyclops should get RCE instead of a 4 base damage. While it does work for him it's not really Cyclopsy. He moves and shots, with full power, all the time. And with his wide beam capabilities, multiple targets, Cyclops shouldn't be stuck with single target RCE. But some RCE is applicable, after he losses Running Shot as an example.

And I could understand how you haven't seen my "case"...if you skipped my other posts. Have you read everything I said in this thread? Because if you had you would have seen me say:

I then also commented on why I think Scott, without his visor ( outwitted) differs from melee range optic blasts and longer range optic blasts.

I then commented on what happens in the comics when Scott uses his optic blasts w/o his visor.

I then argued that not everyone has Combat Reflexes so Scott doesn't really lose any accuracy w/o in game terms.

My comment on the narrow beam damage wasn't really directed at you, I apologize for the confusion. It was more towards Grumpy and his KISS statement.

And since you don't seem to think I have a solution to my complaints I give you my idea for his dial. Personally I would prefer to drop the last click and make him 85 or so points.

#00V V Cyclpos
Team: X-Men
Range: 8
Points: 110
Keywords: X-Men, X-Factor

8 9 17 2

8 9 16 2

7 9 16 2

7 9 15 2

6 8 15 2

6 7 15 2

6 7 15 1

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

KO KO KO KO

The X-Leader Cyclops can use Leadership. When any friendly character uses the X-Men team ability, heal 2 damage instead of 1.
Range Combat Specialist: Whenever Cyclops makes a Range Combat Attack he gains +2 and +2
Attack - Concussive Blast: Cyclops can use Force Blast. When he uses Force Blast after actions resolve, if his target's defense value is now 16 or less, he deals damage to his target equal to half of his d6 roll for Force Blast.
Damage - Open Visor: Cyclops has

Do try to pay attention.

I said, if Outwitting Cyclops' was the same as removing his visor then Cyclops would suck at all ranged attacks because Cyclops is blind until he fires.

Basically give a blind man an uzi and only allow him to see when the gun fires. Not real accurate huh?

Now if his represents something other than his visor cool...my argument is then moot. The point remains that Cyclops' ranged capabilities is easily Outwittable in game terms, by removing his visor in comic terms. If represents that fine, if not...moving along.

Why are you stuck on the idea that cyke would EVER not use his eyebeams? The only thing that mucks with them is rose quartz. I don't care what happens to his visor, or if you is up close or far away. Every attack by cyclops should be based on eye-beam dmg (unless it is based on handgun dmg [thankyou grant morrison]).

Don't give me that "reluctant to use eyebeams if visor knocked off" stuff either, the x-men are a well oiled tactical combat team with voice AND psychic communication. There is nearly no situation under which someone couldn't tell him what way and when to open his eyes, especially on a vet piece. Not to mention his often overlooked "natural trigonometry" powers.

Plus, no piece over 80 points should be left with no dmg values over 2.

Because Cyke gets into hand to hand combat a lot...where he doesn't use his optics. That and he has to raise a hand to his visor in order to use his optics, leaving himself open to a punch. Thus is a hand to hand fight Scott wouldn't use his optics unless he had no other recourse as it leaves him open.

And his eye lids apparently.

Why? Because you say so? Funny how the source material disagrees with you.

Yeah, lets ignore the comics.

Because in HeroClix no one would ever run Cyclops on a non-X-Men team. Perish the thought. And telling a blind man the target is "to your right" doesn't make him a marksman all of a sudden.

As overlooked as Juggy not being a mutant, Thor's belt of strength, and Superman's mental powers.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaand there we go. A Cyclops fanboy. Gotcha!

Quick, go to the units section and run a search on all figures over 80 with a damage value of 2 or lower. Count them up and let us all know what you find.

I need some popcorn.

Any argument in here can have the rebuttle: There are things in this game that haven't ever made 'sense', so there is no sense in trying to make sense of it.

Now then, are there other Secret Santa figs out there besides Cyclops and Emma Frost? Please?

yeah I wanna know too...
maybe there's some kinda theme behind it, like all the Secret Santa figs are the Astonishing X-Men (Cyke, Emma, Kitty, Wolverine, and Beast) or something like that...

No, but dremak has a point. There was a point in time when this actually happened.

Gambit was briefly blind during Milligan's run. In the final arc, when the Brotherhood attacks the mansion, someone (I can't specifically remember who, I think it was either Emma or Sage) acted as a psychic connection for him, essentially allowing him to use their eyes so he could attack. (Not exactly a high point of X-men storytelling mind you, but it happened.)

I think something similar happened with Cyclops and Emma during Whedon's run, although maybe not exactly that.

I still haven't heard an answer as to why he wouldn't do more damage up close. Seems to me if he shot you directly in the face/chest, it would hurt a lot more than if you were 30 yards away. He is trained in hand-to-hand combat, and has used that a lot - mostly because for most of his career, he's aiming to subdue someone, not take them out. But there's nothing to say he wouldn't/couldn't just shoot somebody point-blank either, especially modern day Cyclops.

Well, the better answer is:

KISS.
The game is an abstraction.
Some things are just done for balance/gameplay.

No one really wants a game where the Flash can move a million squares, where Batman can Outwit anyone on the board regardless of LOF or team ability, or where the team Superman is on always wins.

No. Not that anyone has admitted to, anyway.