I can see your point, I did not see it that way. I saw it as a rival match that needed to happen.

It's not the end of the world either way, and if it's a friendly rivalry then I doubt it was much of an issue if any? I know I would be fine with losing a match if it were against one of my buddies, just because I love to play against them.

I still need to get together with one of my friends and play my Secret Six against his X-Force. That's gonna be fun.

You're still confusing two separate issues: the goal of the game, and the enjoyment of the game.

I've had many games where I won without enjoying it. I've had even more where I've lost but had a fantastic time in the playing. However, I have never had a game where I was intentionally trying to lose.

I don't get my enjoyment in HeroClix from winning. I get my enjoyment from playing the game. That doesn't negate the fact that the goal of the game is to win.

I'm wasting my time now.

No. I'm not confusing anything.
You are the one who wants to believe i'm confusing things.

And you obviously refuse to read what i wrote and accept what i tell you about ME and the way I AM enjoying this game.

You say you don't care about winning but you don't sound like it at all.
I don't know you. I can't judge you. I won't.
But what shows through what you have said here, is : it seems rather hardwired in your psychology that the point in alot of activities is the competition for the win. A game is about winning, a martial art combat is about winning... Those are your experience, your opinion, i respect that.
I disagree, but i respect.

But you don't seem to respect, or even try to HEAR mine.
It's pointless for me to try to debate about that with you since you will NEVER come to accept that someone think differently.
Stubborn was a very good word indeed. And it comes from someone that is judged as stubborn by many of his pears, so it's almost a compliment.

So i will stop there.
But nothing bitter about it.
I had plenty of time to expose and share my views. And i believe some people here have read and appreciated the sharing.
I'm happy to have read others views too.

As a joking tone sidenote : Do you thrive for winning so much you have to win in everything you do, including HERE on hcrealms ? Well, i'm happy to "concede" then, and (i know it will be hard to believe, and i'm probably expressing it in a very bad way due to language difficulties but) it's satisfactory to me if it makes you happy.
Really, i don't care. If it pleases you to have the "final word", be my guest.

As another sidenote : Kyuzo ? like L5R CCG character ? gives me even more information then

Have a nice day everyone

PS : Thanks to Owlman, MisterId and Thrumble Funk among all others since i believe they reacted really nicely to my posts. I share Funk's view on video game too : i usually play them mostly single player RPG for the story and immersion too !

Not trying to stir the pot here but...Kyuzo is right.

You're essentially saying that winning is a secondary consideration for you, right? As in it is ancillary to your enjoyment of the game.

Kyuzo, if I read it right, is saying that enjoyment of the game is subjective and, specifically, that it is not necessarily bound to the concept of "winning." However, when you sit down for a game of HeroClix across from an opponent, the objective of the game is to KO pieces on your opponent's team and thus defeat your opponent.

Now this may not be YOUR goal, but it certainly is THE goal of the game overall. The rules state as much.

Not trying to step on your toes, just trying to clarify things.

That is what he says now but that is certainly not what he was saying when i first started to answer. Thus, i don't believe it is what he intended to say at first.

Proof here :

Nuff said. (emphasis mine)

My answer : We are just playing with dolls and tossing cubes around. That's the way i have fun and i'm clearly not ashamed of it !

I honestly don't care how you enjoy the game. That has nothing to do with the goal of the game.

You misunderstand. A match or a bout or an individual HeroClix game has the goal of winning. There is much more to HeroClix than just winning. There is certainly much more to Jiu-Jitsu and other martial arts than just winning. That has no bearing on the goal of the individual bout, though.

I have heard and respected your opinion. But I'm not discussing opinions on enjoyment. I'm discussing the goal of a game.

Actually, I do enjoy dialectics and argumentation for all the same reasons I enjoy Chess and Go and Jiu-Jitsu and HeroClix. I don't engage in any of these activities solely to win. Nothing is gained by an empty win. However, neither do I engage in any of these activities intending to lose. When I do lose-- which is not an infrequent event-- I have fun, learn from my mistakes, and improve for my next outing. That doesn't mean I didn't try to win in the first place.

Nope. "Kyuzo" as in the character from Akira Kurosawa's Seven Samurai.

All I can say is this:

'When playing a game, the goal is to win, but it is the goal that is important, not the winning' - Dr. Reiner Knizia

I think I understand where both clameire and Kyuzo are coming from.

I have shown up to a tournament with a team that I know has no chance of winning. I'll do that if I want to play figures I haven't played before or to see how someone's Special Power works/how I might actually make that power useful in a game or maybe to do something really silly (like playing a team full of characters assigned the Fastball Special Feat and just hurl my figures at my opponent's figures). In these cases, winning isn't even vaguely important to me, the main goal is whatever I built the team around.

That said, whatever it is I'm trying to accomplish (testing figures, using feats for comedy relief) has the point of damaging/KOing the my opponent's pieces which is how the game is won. For example, I'm not targeting Blocking Terrain with Fastball Special, I'm targeting my opponent's figures.

When I play I play to win,I like to see how well my team and strategy do against another player/team.That said I play to win but have fun winning or losing,the fun is not the game, it is the person playing the game,it is what you make it to be.I like playing power players,strategy players I never talk negative about another players team,this also helps me improve my game.I could be having fun playing a game,but if my opponent is not because his rolls are bad or he is losing then that makes me not have fun.If a person talks negative about my team or say's that Iam playing cheese then that takes the fun out of the game,why is my team cheese and his is not is it because he say's my team is and I do not say his is but could say his team is cheese also.The game can and should be fun but it is you the player that has to make it fun.

So...this thread went from questions about passing and stalling to arguing about playing to win. Ah...I love the derailment of threads.

I post to derail!

Well since this thread is derailed already I might as well contribute to the derailment.

Which Heroclix looks the most delicious? I say the Martian Manhuter sitting on a throne of Oreo cookies. Who wouldn't want to eat all those Oreo cookies? All we need is some sweet, sweet, milk!

Well, that is what i was talking about. Ubercompetitive mindset. About dialectics, i was like you once. When i was way younger. I've outgrown that (can we say outgrown myself ? or can we say i'm just getting old ?) realizing that there is no winner in an argument, especially when it occurs on internet. On internet such empty debates are only two fools trolling probably thinking what they have to say is interesting. It's usually not. There is much more to win in empathy, understanding, sharing opinions without trying to convince anyone, and letting go. I'm amashed of having this conversation derail to the point of being one of the two fools trolling anyway. That is why i want to end this conversation, now. Thank you. (and sorry for having made this thread derail)

all Heroclix are wonderful, all Heroclix are beautiful, but Ms. Skrull-vell is delicious.