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Originally posted by stubarnes Completely different. If Poison Ivy becomes as ubiquitous as Enemy, maybe. Skullclamp in everything is not at all the same as Enemy in everything.
(Just for the sake of the party, Skullclamp wasn't rare and it still clogged the system beyond repair.)
Just to play Devil's Advocate here:
I think that the Enemy-Skullclamp analog is somewhat valid. They can both go in almost any deck, they both make the deck better/more consistant simply for existing. The major difference between the two is that Skullclamp was apparently horrible through most of development, so it got changed at the last minute and printed broken. Enemy was a featured card in the set, so R&D must have put a little more effort into balancing it.
I think that Enemy is more comprable to the old school Tutors (Enlightened, Worldly, Vampiric) if they had been printed colorless. It makes that type of search capability within a team irrelevant, since you can just "splash" half your characters and have a super-reliable tutor.
Do I think it's the worst thing to happen to the game? No.
They've already banned that.
Do I think that there's a possiblity that the game may have changed irrevocably due to one card? Yes.
I, like alot of folks apparently, am not entirely sure that I like that.
A truly broken card is a card where there is no good reason not to run it. A mono team deck is a deck that has a good reason not to run it. Lets face it. This game has no side deck/ board. We the players don't want it and the one game matches make it irrelevant anyways. EomE might as well be the games "side board". Plot twists wreck your deck....1 copy of sage/Black Cat fits the bill. Worried about Rush? Cardiac or M&M can help you survive it. If those cards don't help your current matchup at all.... pitch em to EomE and grab something that can. EomE is a Tech enabler. It allows a condition where decks don't have to devote 10-15 slots to "tech" against 1 specific type of deck only to get crushed by another specific type of deck. 4 EmoE's + 6 tech characters= 10 slots to compete against 6 types of decks. To reliably draw into something you need 3 or 4 copies or 18-24 slots reserved to tech against those same decks without EomE. Thats just one reason I am glad EomE is a part of the game. It can give a bad matchup at least a fighting chance. Otherwise its just paper-scissors-rock.
There were decks that didn't play Skullclamp. They were, however, a very small minority of decks.
Also, these 'mono-team' decks that you claim don't need Enemy... Where are they exactly? Both Avengers Reservist and Squadron Supreme, the two best mono-team aggressive strategies, have mutated to incorporate Enemy of My Enemy.
Originally posted by Batshido I think that Enemy is more comprable to the old school Tutors (Enlightened, Worldly, Vampiric) if they had been printed colorless.
I would like to say that Teams and Colors have NEVER been similar enough to compare.
EVERYTHING in this game has always been colorless. It's too late to now start worrying about something like that, that's a design element.
Originally posted by kairos10 Yup. I don't see any Cherry Picker there at all. Even if they're all using Enemy of my Enemy (and I'll definitely be checking), all that proves is the card allows for diversity, instead of stifling it.
How so?
to be honest, all of this diversity is because NO ONE KNEW WHAT TO EXPECT.
So what do you do? run the best chars at every drop, and if you are good enough, maybe run a 'theme'. Like how many Arkham characters are ACTUALLY in that deck?
Run Sage to stop a combo from going off with precision, run Squee (that's what Mxytlplxz is, dont deny it) to recoup card advantage, run EOME to get anything necessary to counter your opponent, or to go over the top and smash him.
Once the silver meta establishes itself, (and probably golden too), EOME is going to be the card to fuel ten teams, high voltage, and probably some other high powered, kill by turn two deck.
and You know what? if they ever Banned EOME (which I doubt), You'd be highly touting how much of a good choice UDE made.
Enemy is going to a fuel a deck that wins the turn before you can play Enemy? Damn man, if I knew it were that good we would have definitely run 4 copies.
Originally posted by krazykilroy and You know what? if they ever Banned EOME (which I doubt), You'd be highly touting how much of a good choice UDE made.
If it's the right choice when they do it (and if they banned it tomorrow, it wouldn't be), I will say they did the right thing.
However, I didn't get involved in this thread except when Keleko said he hoped there'd be multi-team hate. I'm not really arguing whether or not Enemy is good for the game, per se...I'm arguing that multi-team decks are good for the game.
Multi-team decks are undoubtedly good for the game. But that doesn't mean there can't be cards that work against strategies that completely abandon the entire concept of the 'team'.
I'm not sure yet. Golden Age is a drastically different animal, in large part thanks to Doom. Justice League of Arkham cannot, I believe, handle Doom being played with the initiative on turn 4, thanks to Reign on Dr Light and Doom bulking up hand size with Common Enemy, Faces from the row and so on. Titans can do the same with Terra, stunning Dr Light before he can be activated.
The Mexican Hardware Store deck is simply a slower version of High Voltage - if any of the splashed tech in MHS is needed in High Voltage, it can be used just as well in the existing deck.
The real unknown would be the Checkmate decks, and I have a feeling that even there the relative vulnerability of 3-drops will be a fatal problem. Not to mention that a higher proportion of KO effects in Golden (such as Total Anarchy) actually KO, rather than removing from the game, and Ahmed becomes harder to protect (although Huntress, Reluctant Queen will still do a lot of the work.)
I would be not at all surprised if Ahmed did see Golden play, but I don't expect it will be in quite the same form as Silver. Running Ahmed with Doom is certainly an interesting proposition, giving easy access to Doomstadt, Latverian Embassy and, if needed, Latveria.
Originally posted by kairos10
However, I didn't get involved in this thread except when Keleko said he hoped there'd be multi-team hate. I'm not really arguing whether or not Enemy is good for the game, per se...I'm arguing that multi-team decks are good for the game.
and that's where I start my rgument with you.
I believe that EOME is good for the game. Search is a necessary evil that the game desperately needs.
However, multi-teams are bad for the game, to an extent. they are defintely bad for the theme players who wish to play with gotham or JLA, and things like that. also, these multi-teams are totally ignoring and bypassing two early mechanics of the game: team attacking and reinforcement, both key components of what made this game so appealing to players as opposed to other CCG's
Originally posted by stubarnes Completely different. If Poison Ivy becomes as ubiquitous as Enemy, maybe. Skullclamp in everything is not at all the same as Enemy in everything.
Why not? Isn't popularity a reasonable measure of a card's power? I mean, if everybody and their dog, and their dog's cousins, and their dog's cousin's former room mates are playing the card, isn't it a sign that it might be a little too good?
Originally posted by Entity Why not? Isn't popularity a reasonable measure of a card's power? I mean, if everybody and their dog, and their dog's cousins, and their dog's cousin's former room mates are playing the card, isn't it a sign that it might be a little too good?
Not to me. As long as the card encourages and allows a diverse environment for it to play within, then I see no problem with popularity.
Skullclamp forced a certain type of mechanic, a particular strategy. Enemy allows much more freedom to build in different directions. Speedy, Mikado and Mosha, Poison Ivy or Dr. Light are much more akin to Skullclamp.