Read the first post... this thread wasn't about "tearing down" anything... no game engine changes... no re-doing the template. Just merely trying to find ways to make it more accessible.

And I would encourage you to stick to your promise of keeping the peace, instead of trying to tear other opinions down in a vain attempt to sell the stu juice.

Onward!

By attacking other people's arguments in the way you have, stu. You essentially admit that the opposite side has more merit. You mask your latest posts with subtle hints of personal attack through metaphors and other sublime methods, but in the end, its without substance.

The metaphor game was started when erick said we can't nuture the game like a child. I disagreed, and I used a metaphor in response. No problem, no attacks. We are just talking.

Seriously, calmly, go back two pages and check your responses to Walter. You tend to get a bit sarcastic yourself. I don't see how you can throw stones from your glass house, and I have been much better lately.

Back to the topic, I put my response up back on the third page or something. I think we need more starter decks with big broken effects and more advertising and more exposure in major retail outlets. That doesn't make for a fifteen page thread, however, so we got here instead. No problem.

Thanks, that is so cool. I'm honestly flattered.

If Vs. is producing enough of a profit to have enough Return on Investment to keep being produced ... that is going to be enough to keep it being produced. Undercutting your competition is a great way to outsell them AND wrack up a huge debt.

Let's say that Vs. finds a 'niche' where it can pay for itself and a high enough RTI to continue production ... they can get the sales up and actually surpass other games that sell better, but doing so at the cost of actually decreasing the RTI.

When you are expanding, you are often also spending. Loss leaders are used to make future customers, and get more market penetration, etc. However, that goal, and the goal of financial stability are two different goals. Growing the game delays it's ability to be financially viable [although it will hopefully create a greater return when it reaches the 'harvest' period]

Who said small mind? Just saying, someone that gets mad about people putting words in his mouth should probably avoid doing the same.

Perhaps not directly ... but there is 'obviously' something wrong with it ... that seems to be what you've been saying. Room for improvement is different than something being wrong with it. And, as the concept is in terms of comparing to other things ... perhaps it's not necessarily Vs. that is the cause, but the other games. The other games have access to benefits that Vs. doesn't ... just a simple fact.

There are some thing that Vs. could do to close the gap. The market survey includes starter sales. Those games that sell more than Vs.? They also have starters released more often than Vs. Not only do they often have a starter for each set, they actually have different starters, instead of just a single one.

Yes ... of course, will the masses buy an Alpha Flight set?

Ask stu about that.
How ironic... did I say you said I had a small mind? And unless you have some magic internet emotion detector... I don't see how you could say I get "mad"... I just point it out... especially in your case since as a mod... you should know better.
And that, of course, is your opinion, which I don't agree with entirely. The only "obvious" thing that I've been saying is VS is not doing as well as it could... or should be. I don't know how long you've been involved with VS but I have been there since before inception and I've seen the pitfalls... and not just in VS... but many other games too. So my perspective may differ from yours. One day I'll post a breakdown of the history of VS from my point of view and we can trace where the "big fall" occured... I just don't think stu is ready for it right now.
And getting back on topic... I concur 100% with this. Although some people don't like the idea of making beginner starters along with precon ones... which doesn't make sense to me... again... the more the merrier.
One could hope. That was an exaggeration of course... and contradictory to the "more teams not good" edict... but being a fanboy of Box and Puck... I gotta throw it in there.

Honestly, I cannot answer. It was something I said once... and you have repeated it around 20 times since. I don't know why you continue to reference it.

I was talking about perspective. Like asking "How much of the big picture do you focus on?" This is what I meant:

Large mind: Vs. System (and life in general) is a hobby that brings happiness and a sense of community to many people's lives.

Small mind: Vs. System (and life in general) is a struggle, on every level. A struggle to beat the other guy, to design the perfect cards and ban the ones that we think are problems, and a struggle to sell more cards than anyone else and run the perfect company... rather than enjoying the level we are at, no matter what that level brings.

That's just an opinion that I live by. Sorry if it offends.

Hmm... according to you... seems like most of business world (and UDE) have small minds.

But thanks for your opinion.

That is correct. We all have small minds, and we all have large minds. I never meant it as an insult, and I have to use my small mind evertime I play Vs. System.

Here's a great example from the news. The boy was using his small mind, and the monks were using their large mind. If the monks were using their small mind they would have made a big stink of complaining and started a lawsuit: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...a084905D16.DTL

They used their large mind instead. Not better or worse, just an example.

Oh... nice spin. You got your foot in your mouth and now your trying to walk backwards on one leg.

So now everyone has TWO minds but yet your original post called people "small minded" which means they only have one mind. And now it's not meant as an insult because I framed it with your employer as an example.

Nice try. Thanks for playing.

Can we please go back to talking about Titanic?

Are small minded people more apt to hold a grudge?

In light of recent posts, a few of things came up that I would like to discuss:
I actually want to revisit this because WaKo had some salient points in his defense.

Is it not reasonable to think that VS already went this route and did not get the result it wanted?

1. UDE licensed not 1 but 2 of the best comic properties.

2. UDE designed the best TCG engine for VS to capture the flavor of the comics.

3. UDE created the best OP program for VS that included a $1Mil Pro Circuit.

4. UDE created the best Hobby sales program with not only distributor sales but direct sales to Hobby stores that included Hobby League support.

So, sometimes, just being the "best you can be" doesn't necessarily mean you will be successful or that it is what is "best" for the players. This is what happened to DuelMasters. They had it in all in place... it was a hit in Japan but where is it now? Look at PS3... best graphics, BluRay player etc etc... yet Wii is killing them. Again... "simple" sometimes beats "best".

Another thing I wanted to throw out was how is YGO so popular with a demographic that has little to do with the TV show or the characters.

At our events, there is a huge group of players who mystify me. They aren't your typical stereotype of gamers... these guys are not kids, they are elder teens to early twenties. They don't wear "I love BlueEyeWhiteDragon" t-shirts but actually reflect the hip-hop/trendy/punk/emo/skater stye that is popular in today's youth.

Why do these guys play YGO? They don't watch the cartoon and many of them don't even know Jaden from Yugi. So what drew them to the game? I don't think superheroes are any less cool than dragons or wizards... so what makes them buy and play this "kid" game?

And one last thing that I think we all agree on and would draw in more people and help the secondary market. Make MONEY high-profile character cards. What was/is the highest dollar character card in VS? Sabretooth? Garth? Mr. Mxy? Haywire? Why aren't there $15 Spiderman/Superman/Batman cards? Or at least... make those money PT cards have the high-profile characters on it... look at Enemy and Mobilize... who are those guys? At least Straight has Superman on it. I realize this is probably the lowest of priorities on UDE's list but they should try to make the most popular characters in comics the most valuable and sought after ones. Methinks Ahmed singles go more than the majority of the big comic names rares. Look at the history of the VS top decks... Brotherhood, Sentinels, Teen Titans, Check-[anyteam], Squadron, Avengers (okay... but it doesn't even have Cap in it). Is it a wonder more people don't play? They can't win with their favorite characters.

First, who's on them? I believe Enemy has Magneto on it, and he's probably one of the most well-known characters Marvel has. Shaw isn't as big, but he's hardly small-time. And Mobilize has a founding member of the JLA, as well as a founding Teen Titan (one of DC's biggest books and TV shows) and a new Titan. So, that's pretty big.

Brotherhood: huge
Sentinels: pretty damn big
Teen Titans: huge
Avengers: huge

I think Checkmate and Squadron are the only ones that make your point accurately on that list.

Ok I'm with you!

They designed the best engine they could with the people/time they had. I personally like the system they designed. Still here with you!

Really the best op program? Really? The easiest to qualify for sure, but I would think the 'best' program possible would be one that is capable of staying around a little longer than three years. It would either A. handle the resources it was given a little better, or B. create enough of a buzz to keep the profit margin reasonable to support itself. Personally I think they went a little too big on OP and it has played out to where we are now.

I like what they are doing, I have to believe it's more cost effective then the original Pro Curcuit, and I want to participate so it's effective at the very least to me.
You should start a poll of how many of the players you see watch YGO they all appear like your basic Ameri-Anime watching bunch here.

Trend following easily explains not only why they are playing the ever popular YGO but also their awesome fashion sense. Your demographics as always are vastly different then ATL at a +100 person YGO event I will see 10 people who don't look like your average stinky gamer but apperently in your part of the world all of the 'psedo-cool' kids are playing. Congrats on being in fashion!
Why do I see adults playing pokemon? Why would anyone watch anime at all? Why do married men who have attractive wives who will sleep with them still cheat? Why does Mike Vick keep screwing up his business? Why do I keep responding to these silly posts? How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop?

If the cards are all top down designed the end results are what they are. The reason that Mobilize and Enemy appear the way they do is that the sets try and refer to the teams in the set in which they appear while representing comic history the cards in fact could have appeared in different sets but due to the sets they appeared in you got what you got.

Mxy, Garth, Haywire, are cards whose effects do rare things but they fit flavor wise intact with their characters. Mxy you can't get rid of the guy, hence return to hand. All of the sea based guys return things to your hand, Garth fits in there, and Haywire... who the hell is Haywire anyway?

There are alot of variables that define the secondary market cost of a card including the current metagame, the team-relations of the card and the current legal cardpool. I wounldn't be more likely to buy Spider-mxy, but that's just me.

Enemy of My Enemy with Venom and Spider-man fighting Carnage FTW!

Peer pressure. Plain and simple. Some better questions would be how long have these "kids" been playing Yu-gi and how much do they have invested in the game. I'd bet the majority of them have been playing since elementary school and have been collecting just as long.

My opinion is that if Vs. had hit the scene prior to Yu-gi's release in the US, then all these kids would be playing our game...

I know we all don't agree on this. From a collector's point of view, I'd like to see my "junk rare" binder gain some value... but not at the cost of chasing away potential players over an entry cost point.

One of the biggest selling point amongst the players I know is that the cards (in general) are not high dollar to purchase as singles. There will never be a "Power Nine" in this game and some of the collectors out there need to realize that. They're the reason that Gallery Packs sold so well, not your "Joe Average" player who could care less about "blinging" out his or her deck. EA's are the high-end collectable aspect of this game... every other card should be easily accessable and affordable to everyone IF you want to "grow the game" like you've been speaking.

On the topic of "junk rares", I have a collection of about 10,000 MTG rares that will likely never see more than a $.99 value on them. It's just the nature of CCG's in general. Does MTG have a strong secondary market? Yes, stronger in some areas than others... but then again, MTG has a solid OP program behind it to justify the cost and value of the cards both bought and sold in their market.