as someone who enjoys both ends of the spectrum i get where youre coming from. and if this somehow wins it ALL, it wins in a much less outlandish way than sif in its heyday imo, because at least the opponent has a 50/50 chance.

While "Play To Win" is a mindset, it still includes one very important word; Play.

This build is not even playing the game. It takes an entire match that's supposed to take approximately one hour and turns it into a roll off. At a ROC, it makes it a double loss with the other player having zero control.

Only the the most technical sense.
The guy fielding the Secret Six in a casual venue who is facing of against some monstrosity featuring a Resource, two Entities, and whatever the lastest meta figures are is not getting to play in any real sense of the word. He's just sitting there watching his team getting ripped to shreds, maybe inflicting a little bit of Mystics damage is he's lucky.

I disagree. It is using the rules to play the game in a different way.

Match length is only there to limit how long you can play, it doesn't promise you anything else.

I'd rather the game be over instantly with this tactic then sit there for a full match while someone has an indigo battery and sniper riffle and high range figs plinking you from afar while they spin the battery and when you get within 4 finally they have that one sin that shuts down your actions or being hit with 5 copy cats and an orange battery that turns off your shape change or healing so your not even playing your team anymore.

There has always been some rock, papers, scissors aspect to the game and the luck of the rolls that you needed to counter certain stuff. The meta game has been moving away from having to worry about dice rolls since you have resources modifying your attack to high sums. Anyone can hit anyone so now it's moving to figs that can absorb tons of hits since they only take 1 damage. You have figs that can steal a piece of your resource and attempt to run out the clock and win on points.

You might run into a team you don't have a counter for and lose to bad gameplay. Now you can run an under built one man army and win on a dice roll with no gameplay what so ever. To paraphrase Dom Torreto it don't matter whether you win by a point or a roll off, wining is wining. I don't play competitively in big name tourneys so it's not a big deal to me but, I have played against very competitive teams in local tourneys and been wrecked. I've been upset by said teams but all is fair in a legal build right? Until something is changed this is a legal build and no less a valid strategy then turtling right?

Now that something removes someone else's fun or chance to advance ie the person usually wining now it's not fair?

I remember reading in the Texas Regional thread about many games ending in a 0-0 tie. Obviously no one hopped off. So they were "playing". That is a double loss did anyone enjoy that? Until Wizkids fixes things don't hate the player hate the game.

Everyone is so fixated on the concept of starting the game and immediately going to a roll off that in my opinion it's really pointless to read this thread anymore. But I guess that's the difference between meta players, non-meta players, or people who just netdeck.

I have wanted to post some of my meta teams in the past but my teammates have said not to. But I'm going to just go for it this time and post my team and what I was thinking.

Sandman with ion and ophidian
Grasshopper with adara
Green battery and ring
Green wall, sniper, nurse, decoy, and shield

So immediately I realized that more than one grasshopper was a mistake. With one you try to position the battery so you can wall yourself behind it and get the battery to it's god clicks. Also why use two when an experienced player won't use him as an attacker. I'd rather beef up the battery and sandman than waste points on another support piece. Also if your opponent has copycat then that is absolutely great. Because turn 1 I have her use nurse, grasshopper will jump and sandman will pulse wave. Once I get the kill I jump out for the win. That's the strategy, try to get a kill. Jumping out without a kill is a last resort. But once you get some kind of points you leave on your terms. Adara is for TK only. Ophidian is for pulse wave. Ion gets you +1 because of the ring.

Also i realize people may go for the battery. Honestly if they want to come to me I welcome that. Anyway, i have to get back to work.

"I'm just trying to kill Germans any way I can."

"Jim, we are the Germans..."

You seem to be missing the point that this team can win, it just doesn't win in a way you approve of. Which reminds me of people who hate soccer teams that go all defense in opening-round World Cup matches against superior opponents, or hockey teams that played the neutral zone trap before the rules changed...

It potentially wins by not playing the game.
That's the issue.(for me anyways, I have not been keeping up with the debate) Might as well just rock paper scissors for it. Rock paper scissors is not Heroclix.

Playing all defense in soccer is still playing the game.
That hockey thing... I don't know but it's probably still playing the game.

This is breaking the game to a point that the game doesn't even happen anymore.

I dunno. Sounds like you play at least one turn.

I've seen some video games of high-level competition, and that stuff doesn't look like what I consider "playing," either...

It's the game we deserve, but not the one we need right now.

They want to take the map out of the game with figures like Spiral(pre-errata) and IIM001 Iron Man. Why not take the game out of the game too.

I designed a custom dial for this.

That is a very relative term considering many competitive teams are designed to "not play the game" in one way or another. This is what Heroclix has become, finding ways around "playing the game".

Which is the main problem here.


If one wins initiative, they get to "play" one turn where Sandman is covered by First Turn Immunity anyway. It's pretty much impossible to accomplish anything that will stop Sandman from ending the game anyway, except just stall for the entirety of the game clock, which will yield the exact same result anyway.



"Competitive" versus "Casual" anything tends to look very different. I remember back in the day I entered a Smash Bros Melee tournament, and it was totally different than playing at home with friends. Other players looked at me funny when they learned my character was Link. I later learned that while I was able to play his strengths, Link was at the absolute bottom tier of play because of his glaring weaknesses in the game. They also used what appeared to me as strange techniques that abused the game's rules ("Wavedashing" if you're familiar, was a staple) that I sort of picked up before my third opponent took me out.

While I was one of the better players at home, I was totally outclassed at this event (naturally) and I barely even picked up what players considered game basics before I was bumped out. Completely different game. I could still use Link effectively in home games, but I knew I couldn't make him work in competitive events because his weaknesses were too extreme.

Games are still there to be played though. We don't bring Heroclix to an event to just roll 2d6 that decide if we win or lose without even playing.