It went like this:
"For all I know, the initial idea was from JMS or Millar or Bendis and I just mulled it over until it became mine."

"But the way this idea evolved into what it is now came from looking at my options on Cap as Civil War was ending, and seeing what they were. The two obvious options -- a) Cap resigns, gets on his motorcycle and goes to find America, and b) Cap is in jail and on trial -- were things I felt had been done, either in Cap, or in other comics -- notably, I'd just finished a run on Daredevil where Matt was in prison. So, since I didn't want to do either of those stories, I looked at my outline for the next few years that I'd been plotting out, and decided to push up my big "Red Skull Strikes Back" storyline a bit, and tweak it to coincide with Civil War and its fallout and ramifications."

So someone said, "We could have Cap die." And Brubacker says, "I have a story for that written for 2 years down the road. Let me move it up!"

who are you? do i care what you think i should think? no not at all, this "fictional" characters has meant a lot to me my entire life, so even if you cant understand the way i feel, instead of passing judgment on me you should take your ego trip somewhere else. and so what if he comes back from the dead in 3 months, its kinda like the death of comic books in general to me, and the magic "Bring back the Dead" card would only cheapen the character

and i didnt say i would beat him did i, but i probably would beat the living #$@# outa him and every other person involved with this slap in the face

Just saying, priorities, man. Think as you will.
Did you say it outright? Not exactly, but that is a pretty blatant implication that that was what you meant.

Then, honestly, that just shows an amazing lack of judgment ... which, ironically, could get you a job at Marvel, it seems.

Killing a character that large just so that you could bring him back in a year (or after whatever pre-determined length of time) is bad story-telling that should have ended in the 1990s.

So you get a year of great stories about the other characters that the main hero previously overshadowed. Then what?

You've lost one of the mainstays of your company, an icon of the comic genre, and for what? A slight boost in immediate sales (which would drop off sharply after the initial event when the 'prospectors' quit picking up the title), a year's worth of stories, and ... ? Nothing.

Then, you've got to contrive a way to bring the character back, thus cheapening the entire event.

That's not good story-telling, and it's not good editing, and it's not good for the comic industry as a whole, no matter how you slice it.

You're reading way too much into what he says.

He never said that he'd intended for Cap to die. And, he quite clearly says that someone else tossed the idea out there and then, after determining that he didn't like his only other options for how to handle Cap post-Civil War, altered his original story to incorporate the fallout and ramifications from Civil War.

OK gang.

Enough on threatening, real or imagined, of each other, deal?

Look, this is a topic that would get fans riled, it has. But there is absolutely no reason to threaten each other.

I don't want to close this thread (as I have participated in it) but if you all can't lay off the alpha-male smackdown BS, I'll personally shut it down.

Back to talking about Cap, no more threats or even veiled threats, deal?

Front

You just hit the nail on the head with why everyone has been complaining about this decision. We can't get over Cap being dead. Period. I don't care if any other hero in the Marvel Universe is more recognizable to the mass market but bottom line is Cap is the standard bearer of the fictional world. Every hero idolizes Cap in the Marvel Universe. Every one. I know Human Torch & others showed up first but Cap is the original hero of that world and the pinnacle and ideal of what a hero is. So the storyline could be based on the greatest prose an author has ever thought up and put ink to paper but it doesn't change the fact that Captain America is now dead, torn form the pages, world, and hearts of many fictional and real individuals so the story won't be a great ride but an derailed one. It already is to many of us, which is why we are so adamant.

I usually try to keep things light with banter and wit, not just posting but in most aspects of life, it just makes it easier to wake up each day. I don't tend to wax poetic or make somber points; I try not to think in tones that way. And I think it is now hitting me more and more as I read each and every persons thoughts on this, I don't like it. I don't like the Marvel world without Captain America, it feels wrong it feels off it feels dead.

Marvel changed the landscape of it's universe alright, it is now a gaping hole in the earth torn asunder by devastation that can not be fixed. Captain America is dead. I won't say Steve Rogers is dead, because the name Steve Rogers is that of a man and while he is gone so much more is also. Cap was an ideal, a compass, a hero. Giving someone else the shield and allowing them to wear the Star and Stripes will never be a replacement. They may be called Captain America but they will never BE Captain America.

I'll say it again, kill who you want. Don't make a huge fuss about it and send pictures of the wrong version of the character you plan to kill the next day. Just let the story be the hype, not you're "clever" turn of phrase that when Steve shows up just fine you can goe "See we said it like this you interpreted it like that" BS.

Can't wait til the front page of Yahoo tells me Archie is going on a date with Veronica.

Which will NEVER work for me. Steve Rogers was Captain America. No one else in the whole Marvel Universe can fill that hole, no one.

Marvel killed decency, honor, and integrity. That's what it emphasized to me.

Exactly. No Steve, no Cap. Simple as that. But do you believe Warbird? I choose to, because I can't stomach the alternative.

I believe Steve's about as dead as an X-character...nice publicity but that's about it.

So... Regarding the Brubaker arguments, after reading a bunch of the interviews, here's what I can figure.....

Millar pitched the Civil War story. JQ approved it. Millar didn't want to do it unless it was an 'Event' that would actually affect the universe.

Most of the major writers got together to shoot out ideas for the next year, much of it dealing with CV. These included Millar, Bendis, Loeb, Whedon (sp?), Brubaker, and others.

Millar, the main architect of CV, developed the story, knew he wanted the Registration side to win, but didn't know how the last issue would play out. Whedon walked in for 10 minutes or less and pitched the ending with Cap surrenduring due to collateral damage.

Based on Brubaker's statements, someone else (Bendis, Loeb, Millar, Whedon, JQ, who knows? He can't remember himself!) pitched the idea of Caps death. Brubaker already had a developing plot that had to do with Red Skull on top and Cap suffering somehow. It is possible that Brubaker was thinking 'Death of Cap A', but not necessarily. He used his developing plot to facilitate an idea that someone else pitched and that he and (at least some of) the other writers were behind.

JQ and Millar were both on board because, as they both stated, Cap A is a character no longer in touch with today's America, and who's values are out date.

As for the quality of editing and writing.... I'm sorry Brubaker didn't get the chance to develope his 2 year plot the way he wanted to, especially if he's as good as many of you claim. (I've probably read some of his stuff and liked it, but I usually don't check out the authors.)

I have to admit, Millar is a good scripter, and it sounds like Brubaker is as well.... but CV's end plot left something to be desired, IMO. I can cite plenty of bombs by some of my favourite writers, as well as some surprises from authors that I don't normally enjoy. Simply saying JQ approved it and Brubaker is writing it doesn't cut it. We will have to see where all of this goes.

Unfortunately, I probably won't get the chance to read Cap #25 for myself, and I'm not willing to gamble with my money on Marvel right now. So... if it ends up being a decent story after all (based on feedback from you guys) I might consider picking up the trade... but I'm not counting on that.

I've already made my points regarding JQ and Millar's view of Cap. I'm personally not happy with the state of the universe after CV, nor the state of many of the main characters, including Cap.

Edit: spelling and clarification.

I'd like to believe it was a LMD, and his death was faked for some reason. However, Joe Q. is on record as saying he's really and actually dead.

I'm not saying I'll be surprised to have it turn out that through some miracle he comes back, but that doesn't matter. It would just mean Marvel is only crawling back because sales were down.

Ben Reiley was supposed to replace Peter. They were genuinely going have Peter go into the background. Fan backlash was so bad they had to bring him back. While it's great we got Peter back, a little bit of the character was lost to me through that mess.

One clarification:

Though he later went on to say his memory may have been off and it could have been someone else, he does initially say he thought it was his idea.

I'm not sure how some people can be so sure it can be one way or the other when the guy writing the story can't even remember whose initial idea it was.

Joe Q also went on record as saying the first Ronin that appeared in "New Avengers" was a popular character that had a movie. The man's version of veracity makes Beelzebulb cringe.

(Besides, did Joe say Steve Rogers was dead or that Cap was dead because, frankly, Cap did die to the populace that day but nothing to say Steve Rogers isn't still around to retake the mantle).