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What I'd really like to see rather than a spate of Errata or bannings is a set of answer cards: An ongoing Anti-Team up giving no affiliation to all characters in that players hand, KO, Deck, in play; Betrayal; etc etc. Essentially a set of cards that says "You can play all the different affiliation cards you want but I will mess with your strategy."
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Just so people feel it's fair, and the no team at all thing is taken by LoA. Why not one ongoing card, that just says "Play only each player has a character in play. Each player picks a team from one they control. All characters they control are that team and can only be that team." Then even people who play team ups can just pick one of the teams that are paired up, and those that do not play team up cards have to settle for picking one of the many cards on the field.
Originally posted by BoyOfSteel Just so people feel it's fair, and the no team at all thing is taken by LoA. Why not one ongoing card, that just says "Play only each player has a character in play. Each player picks a team from one they control. All characters they control are that team and can only be that team." Then even people who play team ups can just pick one of the teams that are paired up, and those that do not play team up cards have to settle for picking one of the many cards on the field.
Yup, but there's generally phase restrictions to the LoA no Team effects, eg. Tower is combat phase only.
The card you are suggesting is pretty cool. It would nerf all team tagged effects outside the chosen team and essentially force people to play a single team for the purpose of effects.
What it would also allow you to do it to play any character you wanted and have it fit into your team. Essentially it's a team-invite rather than a team-up. As long as they didn't have abilities that keyed off a non-chosen team they'ed be de facto team members.
There'd probably have to be various wording shuffles to incorporate printed affiliations etc.
That said, I'm sure this could be broken in it's own way by someone.
Why not just print a card that says "If your opponent is too good at this game, they have to start with 8 endurance"? Decks like Mexican Toolbox and Ivy League are more a testament to what having good deckbuilders and a dedicated group of testers can do, rather than proof that a single card is too broken. Midnight Sons enables more crazy plays than EOME does; Midnight Sons makes a mockery of team-stamped effects, EOME just allows you more flexibility over the course of a game/tournament. I'd like to think that EOME is a sign that the game has progressed beyond the days of one- and two-team decks, and has evolved into a game where anything is possible. Gone are the days where you can sit down from someone, see them flip a Common Enemy, and know everything about their deck. EOME, and the change in deckbuilding philosophy that has followed it, makes for a more exciting and unpredictable game. Printing a generic card that forces everyone into a one or two team setup is just boring.
Originally posted by BabyArm Why not just print a card that says "If your opponent is too good at this game, they have to start with 8 endurance"? Decks like Mexican Toolbox and Ivy League are more a testament to what having good deckbuilders and a dedicated group of testers can do, rather than proof that a single card is too broken. Midnight Sons enables more crazy plays than EOME does; Midnight Sons makes a mockery of team-stamped effects, EOME just allows you more flexibility over the course of a game/tournament. I'd like to think that EOME is a sign that the game has progressed beyond the days of one- and two-team decks, and has evolved into a game where anything is possible. Gone are the days where you can sit down from someone, see them flip a Common Enemy, and know everything about their deck. EOME, and the change in deckbuilding philosophy that has followed it, makes for a more exciting and unpredictable game. Printing a generic card that forces everyone into a one or two team setup is just boring.
I think you have us wrong here. Neither of us are down on EMOE, we're both pretty happy with the metagame as it is now. I even went so far as to say:
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Originally posted by Zimagic In the meantime you have to just marvel at the excellent deckbuilding that went on in preparation for the PC.
I'd recommend reading the entirity of a thread, not just the title and last post.
I'm a little reserved at the ease at which a deck can be built around 7-8 teams all teamed up on turn 3-5. Hey, it's cool, sure, but allow me to be sceptical about the possibilitis for power creep.
The card suggestion above is not a solution or a fix in any way for a broken metagame, but it is an option. You'll notice that it doesn't restrict the characters you can play in any way, it does restrict the Team-stamped mechanics though. Either way, turn 1 MK character into Midnight Sons with this card following on turn 2 means that you wouldn't even have to run any of the printed affiliation characters in the team of your chosen mechanic. Not too shabby.
It rewards deck built around it and punishes decks who can't take advantage of it/deal with it. That this just happens to be some of the current tier 1 decks does not this card a "solution" make. Nothing 'boring', as you say, about change.
And if my opponent offers to start the game on 8 End, I'll happily accept his kind offer.
I've been reading this thread since it's inception, if I was talking to you specifically, I'd have quoted you.
Building a deck like Ivy League or Mexican Toolbox was probably anything but easy. Like Kim said earlier, they sacrificed things like reinforcement and team attacking in order to win quicker. A deck like that is a calculated risk, and it was piloted by very good players. Those decks aren't auto-wins, and now that the decklists are public record, there are multiple cards that can throw a wrench into them. New cards don't need to be printed to punish diversified character lineups, players need to adapt to react to and play against them. If the game was meant to be played with only one or two teams per deck, then there'd be something in the rules expressing that. Cards like the one proposed above would stifle the game. There are very few cards printed that affect your opponent's team affiliations, and that's a good thing.
EoME should not be banned or erratated (besides - I have two copies that I pulled right out the packs).
The Mexican Hardware store isn't easy to use. The JLofArkham deck is very clever, but requires a lot of skill to make it go off properly. Consider it an alternative win condition rather than a broken engine.
I have found that new Shadow-Glock deck with the 8-drop Captain Marvel to be a pretty easy alternate win condition. With the endurance gain, reinforcement, Rain of Acorns, etc. it's pretty easy to survive to turn 8 with 25 endurance. Is anyone calling to ban this deck? Nope.
Originally posted by BabyArm Why not just print a card that says "If your opponent is too good at this game, they have to start with 8 endurance"? .
And how does a card like that hurt any deck? EOME can still be used, people can team attack, and reinforce.
Next your going to say people need to stop running Tower, or Betrayal because it hurts your feelings.
Originally posted by Synthezoid that new Shadow-Glock deck with the 8-drop Captain Marvel to be a pretty easy alternate win condition. With the endurance gain, reinforcement, Rain of Acorns, etc. it's pretty easy to survive to turn 8 with 25 endurance. Is anyone calling to ban this deck? Nope.
What? This is a terrible argument. The only reason a GLOCK deck made it to 9-1 is because he only played 1 discard deck all day. It can't beat that deck and is at best 40-60 on the Mexican Hardware matchup. I'm not even seeing that it is better than the Checkmate/Villains or League deck.
I agree with your statement, however, that EofME should not be banned. I think that card really makes it possible for deck builders to shine in this game. The complexity of every deck in the top 8 was spectacular, even Mexican Hardware. I net decked it and ran it through a few times, and it is real smooth and teched almost perfectly (with the exception of running No Mans over Trial by Fire and one Light Armor).
I think the only thing that makes the card ridiculous is that it is a rare. I think it will end up being a $50-60 card as soon as the dust settles from this past PC. If you are going to make a card on this level, at least make it available to everyone. I have my playset, but I can't imagine how frustrating it would be to try to pick up one right now.
yes it is very easy to use. I am not putting down anyone who built this deck, in fact I think its brilliant, but it really is very simple to play. Obviously you still have to have crazy skills to win with any deck but I think this deck will be the number one netdecked deck as it is fairly simple to pick up and play and produce very good results.
Originally posted by Taekmkm I seriously don't see the deck as a problem.
The Australians beat the deck very soundly.
Ian beat Gabe 2-0.
Any card draw automatically counters the deck (Via Birthing Chamber, Brother Eye, etc.)
There are 3 silver bullets that severely hinder the deck: Latverian Embasy to stop spamming, Sage to prevent it for 2 turns, and Fatality to prevent everything else. Not to mention whole deck types don't mind emptying their hand.
I've already got plently of decks that aren't effected by the deck. It's not like the Light Show ver. 1 where you needed 10-20 cards to silver bulllet it.
I thought gabe won the first game handily?
The only reason Ian won games 2 and 3 were that he went Swamp then Sage then Fatality and Gabe didn't know how to beat it. It takes 1 card added to Ivy League and that matchup is incredibly easy.
I think Justice League of Arkham is a problem. And I also think had Mike Jacob gone an extra turn and if Ian hadn't naturally drawn Sage, you'd all be singing a different tune with two in the finals. Despite pretty devastating tech that sprung from a leak (Sage 3), we still managed. Now imagine the deck once we know everyone will be sporting a Sage 3.
EOME - Great for the game as far as creative deckbuiliding and allowing any deck to silver bulllet against abusive strategies.
EOMOE - Bad for the game in enabling abusive strategies, and downright criminal that a the card was made a rare. People in my area are already thinking of quitting due to EOME being perceived as the "Mox Enemy" of Vs. I do not think it's healthy for the game to have a perceived staple card re-selling for over $30 on the secondary market.
Originally posted by boothwah I do not think it's healthy for the game to have a perceived staple card re-selling for over $30 on the secondary market.
If you can pick those puppies up for $30 a pop, buy em all. Then resell at $50. You will not have them in your possession long!
Originally posted by BabyArm Why not just print a card that says "If your opponent is too good at this game, they have to start with 8 endurance"? Decks like Mexican Toolbox and Ivy League are more a testament to what having good deckbuilders and a dedicated group of testers can do, rather than proof that a single card is too broken. Midnight Sons enables more crazy plays than EOME does; Midnight Sons makes a mockery of team-stamped effects, EOME just allows you more flexibility over the course of a game/tournament. I'd like to think that EOME is a sign that the game has progressed beyond the days of one- and two-team decks, and has evolved into a game where anything is possible. Gone are the days where you can sit down from someone, see them flip a Common Enemy, and know everything about their deck. EOME, and the change in deckbuilding philosophy that has followed it, makes for a more exciting and unpredictable game. Printing a generic card that forces everyone into a one or two team setup is just boring.
Mexican Toolbox and Ivy League are a testament to the PC teams establishing which characters are the best at their drop, and throwing them in the deck. At that point the game becomes yugioh (I really hate to say that). Midnight sons does make a mockery of team stamped effects, but who uses those anymore? I'm assuming you heard Kim say that it was better to just punch to the face with other cards that allowed more power instead of other earth and panacea.
Fact is, you were almost right that the game has evolved past one and two team decks whereanything is possible. but it's coming close to a point where EVERYTHING can be posssible, but no one will care because they beat you to the face extrememly too fast to see any of those possibilities.
VS to me was a happy medium between MTG and Yugioh, where MTG punished you for depending on multi-resources, and Yugioh allowed you to put anything in as long as it was good. and if it were theme-stamped, it wasn't worth it. VS allowed you to play the game and if you played with one team, you could only do the things available to them. If you played many teams, you faltered because of the weakness of no team attacks and reinforcement.
the situation now is that the risk vs. reward situation is off-kilter. the reward is very high for very little risk. You get high powered characters without the worry of the downside of multiple teams.
I agree with your statement, however, that EofME should not be banned. I think that card really makes it possible for deck builders to shine in this game.
I disagree. If anything, it's a crutch. Enemy Of My Enemy doesn't make deckbuilding harder. It makes deckbuilding easier, because it allows you to treat characters as a nigh-universal resource.
Consider Ivy League. The single stupidest thing said on Metagame during the PCSF weekend (and given that it's Metagame there's always going to be competition for that, but I digress) was saying, "It’s official. The Arkham Inmates just became competitive."
Because the Arkham Inmates didn't become competitive. Ivy League runs four Poison Ivy and four JLArkham. That isn't an "Arkham Inmates deck". Rigged Elections was more of an Arkham deck than Ivy League is.
I'm not trying to take away from the various designers of the JLArkham discard deck, or FTN for designing Mexican Hardware Store, or the folks who built Checkmate toolbox decks. They all did an excellent job. But if you look at the decklists on Metagame, Arkham discarders were the most popular decks at the PC, there were other powerful attack decks fueled by Enemy just like MHS, and there were lots of toolbox decks too.
My point is, FTN and Donkey Club and the other top teams produced the most finely tuned decks of their type, but they didn't really come up with any amazingly inspired tech. There's no New School or Speed Dream story out of PCSF, because Enemy makes ninety-five of your innate metagame decision irrelevant - you can tech whatever characters you need and just fuel the deck with mostly generic plot twists and a few key teamstamped ones where necessary. Enemy mostly removes the "well, X is a bad matchup for me" factor in a large tournament, and that random luck factor is key to a healthy metagame.
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I think the only thing that makes the card ridiculous is that it is a rare. I think it will end up being a $50-60 card as soon as the dust settles from this past PC. If you are going to make a card on this level, at least make it available to everyone. I have my playset, but I can't imagine how frustrating it would be to try to pick up one right now.
And this is where Enemy, for me, goes from "should probably be banned" to "ban it right now". I finally managed to find two Enemy I could borrow for the $10K this weekend (it wasn't easy). I bought three boxes of X-Men and got one copy, so don't tell me I'm refusing to spend enough money on the game; if I spend three hundred bucks plus on one expansion it should, reasonably, be enough to get me just about everything I need via trading and random pulls.
Nobody trades Enemy, because at this point forty-nine out of fifty players have their playset of four and nothing else because they traded any excess for a ridiculous amount of cards some time ago. The effect of this is to create a stratified play situation, where you have the players who have Enemy, and thus the luxury to treat characters as a toolbox resource, and the players who don't, and are essentially in a 100m footrace against other players, except where the other players just have to run, the Enemy-less players also have to jump hurdles.