kiki, scanning vthrough the Universe rulebook, I find this:

So, before you play a game, you build a force (obviously), and then 'prepare for battle (game).

So, how do you prepare for battle?

Well, according to the rulebook, you roll to determine first player, select map and starting side, place objects, and place your team (and, at some point in there, you reveal BFCs, but I'm too lazy to look up when for sure).


So what's my point? I dunno....I'm too tired to have a point....

Besides, the point is moot, as hair10 has alread ruled on the situation, and the bottom line is: the T-bolts cannot copy the AFF feat. Period.

Killjoy

You're correct...




but you're still a killjoy.

I understadn what the rule is, but like the other guy said I truly believe it is retarded to have 2 different Fantastic Four abilities at one team and I fear that this will cause a lot of problems for players that do not know the said rules...

Also, I don't get why the Avengers using Thunderbolts does not qualify for Alternate Fantastic Four... I mean, if the Thunderbolts are able to disguise theirselves enough to use X-Men ability with real X-Men, but are still Avengers at heart, then why can't they disguises theirselves enough to be a new Fantastic Four like everyone else is doing?
It just doesn't feel right, I don't care if it's what is considerer "right" right now, it truly doesn't feel justified...

Peace...

Because the AFF is not printed on the figures' bases. It's provided by a feat card... just like the Tbolts ability is. Then there's that whole timing issue thing.

C'mon guys... if hair10's ruling is the be-all end-all on the subject for you, why bother to post in the first place? Suffice it to say that what the Arbiter rules is the beginning of the discussion for many of us, not the end - as we try to fathom his reasoning on certain matters... And that's what this thread is, a discussion of what the ruling should be - many of us have already stated in our own posts that we're well aware of where hair10 stands on the matter (so pointing that out to us is a bit moot, wouldn't you say?) . If this discussion is not to your liking or annoys you because you feel it's moot, please feel free to move on to something more your speed... but please don't expect us to just stop talking because you're sure the 'bottom line' has been reached.

Okay, the best argument I've heard so far to support hair10's ruling is that the game hasn't begun yet, so the alt.FF TA is available yet because it isn't activated.
-Fairly good reasoning there, except for the fact that the beginning of the game should be starting at the initial dice roll. 'Preparing the Battlefield' is part of the game (not just set up before the game), because players take turns doing so and it is a part (however small) of in-game strategy. If Clix were like Monopoly, where you did all the setting up and afterward rolled to determine who goes first, I'd be more apt to agree with the reasoning; however, since the die roll in Clix happens before setting up/preparing the battlefield, and players are restricted to taking certain actions in turn while doing so (and not cooperating in an exactly-the-same-every-time, doesn't-matter-who-does-it set up like Monopoly & other board games), I think we can safely say that the game begins at that initial die roll and 'preparing' is part of the already-begun Heroclix game.
If that seems reasonable, then it should also be reasonable that by the time TBolts can choose its TA (which is after the game begins & 'after placing your force in your starting area), the alt.FF TA should be an available choice.

Would this whole thing not be simplified if it WAS ruled that:
1) Alternate Team Ability Feat cards can only be used by those who meet the pre-reqs to start with (I don't know about you but I like consistancy in my rules). And because Wild Card figures did not Meet the pre-req Prior to the start of the game they do not have access to the alternate Team Ability.
2) Feat Cards are optional. (again consistancy.) Turning off Thunderbolts provides the Original Avengers TA, which is what WC figure copy. This is how it should work. By not using a feat cards affects you should not be forced to cancel the pre-req. I choose not use Pounce...Oh well I guess I just cancelled my LC.
3) ATA feat cards create a UNIQUE Team Ability that can ONLY be Shared and Used by those how PAID for the feat in the first place. Thus Creating an Thunderbolts TA that works like JSA, but cannot share DV's with JSA figures.

These things HELP Themed Play/Teams and only Hurt those trying to abuse the system by WCs and Loopholes in the rules. I think Vet Thor with Thunderbolts (copying KC TA) should have to roll against KC Flash to move adjacent, Different Universes, Different Rules. And likewise KC Flash would have to roll againt Thor's Thunderbolts TA to move adjacent.

These cards SHOULD be reserved for the teams that they are supposed to be helping. But that seems like not the case.






As a Judge, and one who does get into some trouble now and then, I must state that the post above is purely my OPINION and has NO current basis on how the ATA Feat Cards are currently ruled.

Thanks for reading.

Until i see something to change my mind here's how i'll be ruling it:

The Thunderbolts are considered to have whatever Team Ability you choose for the them at deployment (while retaining their Avengers Team Affiliation). When one of your wildcards copies Thunderbolts it works exactly like it does when they copy any other Team Ability.

Hopefully that doesn't mess with your team. I look forward to seeing it Friday... should be fun to watch it in action.

Okay, so the FAQ's come out, and the official rule is that TBolts can't copy TAs provided by feat cards. I was hoping that this discussion might glean some answers as to why that decision was made based on the rules. For those who believe it's because the game hasn't begun when you choose TBolts' alternate TA, here are some things to consider from the rulebook:

Quick-Start Rules, under Start Playing: "Roll two dice..." Nothing in the Complete Rules contradicts this being where the game 'begins'.

Definition of first player in the Universe glossary: "The person who takes the first turn in a game. The first player is the player who rolls highest on two six-sided dice at the beginning of the game."

Definition of starting area: "...This is the portion of the battle map in which players set up their characters at the start of a game."

It would seem the rulebook itself contradicts the idea that the game doesn't actually begin until players start assigning actions. Therefore feats do 'activate' at that very first roll of the dice, not afterward.
For those of you lucky enough to play at venues where Judges allow you to do all the 'set up' steps before the timer: I can only imagine this is done as a courtesy, to let the 50 allowed minutes consist mostly of battle and not set up (if you have prominent turtlers at your venue, this is probably a good decision on the Judge's part).

I'm well aware that I'm still kicking the dead horse here, but I'm still looking for the valid reasoning behind the decision hair10 made... and so far, I haven't heard any argument that couldn't be refuted by the game rules or the feat card's own text. Then again, many rulings don't make a lot of logical sense.
On this different subject, TechGOD brings up a very valid point (and perhaps this deserves its own thread). Since all Feat cards ARE optional (nothing is mentioned in the FAQ about the TA feats not being optional), couldn't a player truthfully have BOTH regular and alternate FF or TBolts on his force at his discretion?
Example:
I've got the alternate FF feat with both SR Sue's 19def and v. Human Torch's ES/D. My opponent wants to target Torch with KC Supe's 5dmg + RCE attack. I use the FF feat, giving Sue's 19 to Torch. Despite all odds, Supe's 11att hits Torch's 21def, doing 7dmg (enough to KO Torch). Now, since all feats are optional, couldn't I immediately cancel the feat and go back to the regular FF TA, giving a click of healing to the rest of my FF characters for my KO'd Torch?
This would seem to open up the doors for a bit of abuse, and hopefully someone can point out a restriction on timing of cancelling powers/feats that would restrict against this.
However, outside that example... if wildcards are allowed to copy alternate TAs and the feats that provide those alternates can be cancelled to go back to the regular TAs, how many wildcard abuse teams do you think we'll see? Using just one FF fig, one Avenger, and a total of 5pts of feats, a player could provide his wildcards with four different TAs to copy. Anybody have a problem with this?

I offered a COMPLETE solution to the issue replacing ALL the Current rulings, you Must take ALL 3 of my statements together to see how it works.

IF you take all 3 as a whole, Then WC figures only get to use the ORIGINAL TA. The Figures with the Feat Card Get access to BOTH TA's. And the Feat Card TA is NOT copiable by WC figures and does NOT interact with the Team Ability copied as they are UNIQUE.

My post was mostly Editiorial and you took 1 part out of context and twisted it to fit how it currently works. Please take my Original Post as intented: as a whole.

guys, I know this is easy to miss because I didn't find it til the other day.

in the mutant mayhem insert that tells about feats, it says specifically that for alternate team ability cards you have to have the team ability printed on the base.

nothing else said thus far had convinced me, until I read that. you can't argue with it.

here's the link. http://www.wizkidsgames.com/heroclix...M_Rules_Lo.pdf

the rule is in the first paragraph.

you can't assign the card to them as they do not meet that requirement, ever.

while i under stand the rules and will have to live by them. I have to argue that it does make little sence since the reson wizkids gave us the card was for them teams. The fact that we did not get powerman with the ff ablity means you will field the spidey version who will copy ff antman will thunder bolts for ff. do these two figures not deservie aff they were on the team. They made a ff spidey were always geting wolvirenes so will get a ff one hopefuly as for fixet hes due for a repriting hopefuly with ff and ghost rider is hopfuly on the list for a version with ff so since were not able thunder bolt or wild card aff why did we not get a ff powerman we have a ff medusa and she hulk. are they planing on makeing a antman with ff. When crystal is made will she get the ff to give all the alts. this is just my futration with the whole idea behind alt team abiltys and the way thay actulay funtion.

so i just read the faq for july. The fact that powerman can copy aff with wildcard prior to what i thought and thunder bolts cant makes me say again we need another antman with printed ff. I also hope for the last four alt ff to be made soon.

Wow... tell a guy he brings up a valid point (in regards to the way things are currently ruled), and he criticizes you for not using his entire concept as a whole, sheesh. TechGOD, while I do fully appreciate your 'solution' to this Alternate TA Feat mess, we both know that WK is not going to adopt your idea, no matter how valid your points may be. WK trapped themselves into letting wildcards copy alternate TAs from the very first press release on the subject, and as we know, they'll never admit it was a mistake to do so. For the record, I think your solution would be a pretty decent one (I'm on the fence on part 3, but 1 and 2 seem reasonable to me).

However, the snippet from within your solution that I pointed out is not 'out of context' in regards to how things are currently ruled (which is a large part of what we're discussing here - what is and what should be). Since wildcards are currently ruled to be able to copy alternate TAs provided by Feats, and Feats can be cancelled/turned off, I thought I was pointing out a possible further abuse of these Feats that the Arbiter and others may have missed (and giving you the credit for noticing the flaw in the rules). Since you also seem to be an abuse watchdog like me, I thought you might appreciate the comment... and I certainly didn't expect you to scold me for it. Your solution as a whole is understood just fine, have no doubts about that... More importantly though, your (now seemingly accidental) comment about all Feats being optional opens up a whole new door of debate on the TA Feat problems, which should be explored before wildcard abuse runs rampant again despite Disbanded.

Sorry if I came off too strong. I just wanted poeple who read your post to know that that point was one of 3.

The way it's currently being ruled is that the Alternate Team ability Feat Cards RE-Write the PAC Team Ability description completely. Meaning the old TA NO LONGER EXISTS. And "cancelling the feat card", although I perfer to say I choose not to use the feat card, Cancels your TA, instead of having the "option" to use the feat card text or not. I think ATA Feat cards are a perfect way to give Teams a NEW SPECIAL UNIQUE ability without completely re writing the PAC. But these cards break almost all the rules on feat cards: Not Optional, Can be used by characters that did not meet the pre-reqs, By not using the feat you Cancel/Turn Off the pre-req(?).

I respect everyone's opinion and appreciate it when someone respects me and my opinions. I will continue to do what I can to help....but decisions have been made for now and hopefully things "can" be changed as some ruling make no sense in the context of the rules.

Ugh, yet another thing that is not stated on the FAQ and a conclusion at which no player would logically arrive... The FAQ explicitly states that when wildcards do their copying, they get the alternate TAs; but there's nothing at all in there about a qualifying character who chooses to turn off its alternate TA Feat losing its original TA as well. Add in the well-known rules of "All Feats are optional" and "wildcards can copy any TA a friendly fig possesses", and I believe the ONLY conclusion a player could come to would be that FF & Avengers get their regular TAs back when the Feats are cancelled/turned off, and when they do so, wildcards could certainly copy the original TAs since they're now 'possessed' by friendly characters... ick. This is just ugly all over the place.