Nothing against you, understand, but that is complete bullcarp. Poison takes effect in the beginning of your turn - if you take an action, it's no longer the beginning of your turn. As soon as you do anything, it's too late for poison, so saying outwit can preempt is like saying you could use less than half your actions for a turn and still say it’s “the beginning of the turn.” It's illogical nonsense, and completely against the spirit of the rule. It's bullocks like this that makes me glad I never go to competitions

Turn 4 (Player 2)

1) GA double-incaps Circe and Joker; rolls a 9 (6,5) for a 19/hit and a token to each, pushing Circe.

Free) Atom pushes to E13

Free) Flash keeps Prometheus’ Outwit outwitted.

2) GL picks up Flash and running-shots to E14 (setting Flash in E15) and attacks Battlesuit #2; rolls a 12 (!) for 3 clicks and the KO.


RE-CAP

JLA:

[]E HT Aquaman (7/7) D13 w/HO
[6]R CJ Wonder Woman (6/8) J16
[12]R Unl Green Lantern* (7/7) E14 @
[]E HT Flash (7/7) E15
[3]E Green Arrow (5/6) E9 @@
[]U Atom (5/6) E13 @@

* Trick Shot

Vs.

The Injustice League:

R Circe (6/7) I-14@@
U Prometheus (8/8) Q-18
E Icn Joker* (6/6) K-15 @
R LexCorp Battlesuit 1 (-1/4) *KO'd*
R LexCorp Battlesuit 2 (0/4) *KO’d*
R LexCorp Security 1 (0/4) *KO’d*
R LexCorp Security 2 (4/4) R-13@
R LexCorp Security 3 (4/4) L-16@
R LexCorp Security 4 (4/4) J-14
R LexCorp Security 5 (4/4) M-14@
R LexCorp Security 6 (3/4) L-15

* Fortitude

HO: P9
LO: G9, P10, K11

I have to agree with you, Lightshear. To my mind, too, once you do something (i.e. take an action) then the 'beginning' of the turn is past. I have to wonder whether the fellows in that HCRealms forum is a judge. Perhaps we should check at the WizKids forum. (Nothing against you, either, TMNT, i just seek clarification on these matters.)

I really don't want this to turn bad. I've honestly just never understood how poison outwit usually works.

For instance. The way is usually works is Joker would have outwited your toughness at some point mid-term. You take your turn, then at the beggining of my turn my poison can now hurt you, and then I can if I want outwit something else. That's pretty much how it's played by most players everywhere.

But I've never understood how that is possible or fair, since the outwited powers are suposed to return at the beginning of my turn. So really toughness returns the same time I'm supposed to poison you. Why does the player get to choose if toughnes should return before or after poison? And then after that, I can the outwit another power.

At least with they way that I did it, I know can't use outwit on any other power. Seems a way of making things equal. I don't want this to be an arguement or for me to be a jerk. I'm not a rule lawyer or anything. I am a judge and so I do know tournament rules pretty well but I'm not trying to beat the spirit of the game. I think RPSC players are the very essence of the spirit of the game.

Anyways, I will however play it your way as a way of showing that I could care less about if my villian team does a clix of poison to you. I can definately see where you care, since it actually has ramifications to you.

I'm gonna post my next move, as normal, howerver, feel to make a ruling anyway, and I won't care, honestly, and won't think any less of anyone for "ruling against me". I've respect all decision you've made thus far, and won't start disrespecting a fellow player and friend now.

Joker is outwiting toughness on Wonder Woman

Then Wonder Woman takes a clix of damage from poison.

Lex Corp #4 is gonna take a shot at Wonder Woman. Av7 vs dv15. Need an 8, roll 5+1 for 6 and a big miss.

Move Security #6 to K-16

Prometheus to F-12, still copying mysics.

Joker will MM to Lex Corp Security #6, then #3, then #4


JLA:

[]E HT Aquaman (7/7) D13 w/HO
[6]R CJ Wonder Woman (5/8) J16
[12]R Unl Green Lantern* (7/7) E14 @
[]E HT Flash (7/7) E15
[3]E Green Arrow (5/6) E9 @@
[]U Atom (5/6) E13 @@

* Trick Shot

Vs.

The Injustice League:

R Circe (6/7) I-14
U Prometheus (8/8) F-12@
E Icn Joker* (6/6) K-15
R LexCorp Battlesuit 1 (-1/4) *KO'd*
R LexCorp Battlesuit 2 (0/4) *KO’d*
R LexCorp Security 1 (0/4) *KO’d*
R LexCorp Security 2 (4/4) R-13
R LexCorp Security 3 (4/4) L-16
R LexCorp Security 4 (4/4) J-14@
R LexCorp Security 5 (4/4) M-14
R LexCorp Security 6 (3/4) K-16@

* Fortitude

HO: P9
LO: G9, P10, K11

Actually Turtle, if Joker Ouwitted the defensive power last turn it would of came back before poison was applied. Since it comes back at the beggining of your turn. The best way to explain how Outwit works is like an Instant spell in magic the gathering. It can be used at any point during your turn. Including the begining of your turn which is just Wizkids poor way of saying "Early free actions" turn. Ala Leadership and poison. It's just their way to explain the diffrence between Poison and Leadership which need to be applied before you make an tokenable (in this case move or push) action, then Outwit or Perplex which can be used at any time.

I really see it as the exact opposite as you do Shear, to me it seems like something completly in the spirit of the rules that doesn't actually make much sense by the wording of the rules, since Wizkids tried to simplify things and by doing so actually made them more complex. The "beggining of the turn" thing is only there so you don't move and then poison somone, or I guess push on to leadership... I'm not sure why the leadership one is there.

I found several threads on this issue in the WizKids HeroClix Rules fora:

I don't know if the following link will work:
http://forum.wizkidsgames.com/showth...=poison+Outwit

It seems to come down to this statement by Hair10: >>Things that occur "at the beginning of the turn" may occur in whatever order the controlling player chooses.<<

This seems to make Poison and Outwit a very viable option with lower-point figures against powerhouses such as Major Force, Superman, Hulk, Iron Man, etc....

I really am just trying to play my best, and with a team that has no mobility powers and not a ton of bruisers, I'm just being creative. Really poison is the only damage I'm managing to do to you.

As I said in the PM, Turtle - absolutely no harm done. I was broadsided by an attack that, while seeming nonsensical to me, was completely within the rules. Totally not your fault for playing the game by the book, man, so fear not - all is cool, no harm done, and definitely no hard feelings. And I'll keep the initial poison click, too, as my own sign of good faith and basic common-sensitude. Just because I don't like a rule doesn't mean it ain't still a rule

--------------------------


Wonder Woman had charged ahead, certain that her amazonian might would be enough to best the Joker. After slamming one of the LexCorp goons into a wall of rubble, she whirled back to the pale-faced psychopath.

"You stand no chance," she said. "Concede!"

"Pretty flower for the pretty girl?" was Joker's response. His voice crackled like burning pitch, his yellowed teeth gritting in his wicked smile. He winked one olive-like eyeball and squeezed the flower at his lapel. It struck her squarely, and she didn't even try to move. It sizzled on her chest, and she smiled in defiance.

"Was that supposed to hu...hur..."

"Yes. Yes it was," Joker cackled as his surprise was revealed. "Made all special - you might not die, but you'll be weak as a p*ssy...cat!"

Flash raced to Green Lantern's side. "Prometheus is coming this way!"

"Not ready to deal with him, yet," Lantern said, catching Flash in an emerald bubble and soaring off to another clear spot amidst the debris. "I'm more interested in burning a witch at the stake."

"-And I've brought the timber," Aquaman said, charging up from Green Lantern's rear with a massive block of titanium from a fallen bulkhead. Lantern took the hint, forming a catapault beneath the Atlantean Monarch that launched him forward to land directly on Circe.

She cried out, summoning magic to her aid, but Aquaman would not be denied. He brought down the might of his blow at the bottom of his arc and swung the metal debris like a hammer driving a nail. She collapsed from the blow and fell at Aquaman's feet.

Prometheus appeared as if from nowhere, his personal teleporter depositing him right by Green Lantern. He smiled, using a static charge from his belt to force the Atom back to his full size, and started to swing his tonfar down on the diminutive hero. Flash saw the attack coming and sped over, knocking the device away from him in one swift blow.

"I must...must escape," Wonder Woman said, flying away limply from the Joker and his poison. She could feel her strength returning, but only slowly. She would have to be more careful.

__________________________________

Turn 5 (Player 2)

Free) Atom perp's Aquaman's damage +1

1) GL TK's Aquie to H15.

2) AM attacks Circe; rolls an 8 (3,5) for an 18/hit, 6 clicks and the KO. Aquaman takes 1 in retaliation. Prometheus looses the Mystics TA.

Free) Flash HSS #1's to F13 and swings at Promy; rolls a 7 (1,6) for a narrow hit - SS is a 4 for another narrow victory - and he takes 1 click. Flash finishes in F14.

Free) Flash outwit's Prometheus' outwit.

3) WW goes for the breakaway; rolls a 5 and flies to D13 and sweet, sweet reprieve. That Joker is a jerk!

Recap:

JLA:

[8]E HT Aquaman (6/7) H15 @
[6]R CJ Wonder Woman (5/8) D13 @
[12]R Unl Green Lantern* (7/7) E14 @@
[]E HT Flash (7/7) F14 @
[3]E Green Arrow (5/6) E9
[]U Atom (5/6) E13

* Trick Shot

Vs.

The Injustice League:

R Circe (0/7) *KO'd*
U Prometheus (7/8) F-12@
E Icn Joker* (6/6) K-15
R LexCorp Battlesuit 1 (-1/4) *KO'd*
R LexCorp Battlesuit 2 (0/4) *KO’d*
R LexCorp Security 1 (0/4) *KO’d*
R LexCorp Security 2 (4/4) R-13
R LexCorp Security 3 (4/4) L-16
R LexCorp Security 4 (4/4) J-14@
R LexCorp Security 5 (4/4) M-14
R LexCorp Security 6 (3/4) K-16@

* Fortitude

HO: P9
LO: G9, P10, K11

Joker attacks Aqua-Jerk. Av10 vs dv 14 roll is 6+6 for 12. That was a little unnessary. 4 clix to him, and and extra clix for the knockback into the wall, cuz he's in E-15 and hit that wall behind him pretty hard. So 5 clix total.

That actuall is not what I wanted to happen. I could have finished him off quite easily with my security guards, but now he's out of range. That stinks.

Move Lex Corp #2 to L-15

Move Lex Corp #5 to K-14.

According to the angle chart, Joker still has line of fire to Flash, so I'll outwit his Hypersonic Speed.

Prometheus will push to hit The Atom. Av10 vs. Dv19, it's a long shot, but I have a feeling the last time I'll have any good shot at him. Need a 9, roll is 6+3 for 9. Nice. That's 3 clix to the atom, and 1 to prometheus for the push.

Joker will MM to to Security #6, then #2, then #3, then #5, then #4

Recap:

JLA:

[8]E HT Aquaman (1/7) E15 @
[6]R CJ Wonder Woman (5/8) D13 @
[12]R Unl Green Lantern* (7/7) E14 @@
[]E HT Flash (7/7) F14 @
[3]E Green Arrow (5/6) E9
[]U Atom (2/6) E13

* Trick Shot

Vs.

The Injustice League:

R Circe (0/7) *KO'd*
U Prometheus (6/8) F-12@@
E Icn Joker* (6/6) K-15@
R LexCorp Battlesuit 1 (-1/4) *KO'd*
R LexCorp Battlesuit 2 (0/4) *KO’d*
R LexCorp Security 1 (0/4) *KO’d*
R LexCorp Security 2 (4/4) L-15@
R LexCorp Security 3 (4/4) L-16
R LexCorp Security 4 (4/4) J-14
R LexCorp Security 5 (4/4) K-14@
R LexCorp Security 6 (3/4) K-16

* Fortitude

HO: P9
LO: G9, P10, K11

Turn 6 (Player 2)

Free) Atom outwit's Promy's toughness.

1) GA takes the shot on Prometheus; rolls an 8 (5,3) for a 17/hit and 2 clicks.

Recap:

JLA:

[8]E HT Aquaman (1/7) E15
[6]R CJ Wonder Woman (5/8) D13
[12]R Unl Green Lantern* (7/7) E14
[]E HT Flash (7/7) F14
[5]E Green Arrow (5/6) E9 @
[]U Atom (2/6) E13

* Trick Shot

Vs.

The Injustice League:

R Circe (0/7) *KO'd*
U Prometheus (4/8) F-12@@
E Icn Joker* (6/6) K-15@
R LexCorp Battlesuit 1 (-1/4) *KO'd*
R LexCorp Battlesuit 2 (0/4) *KO’d*
R LexCorp Security 1 (0/4) *KO’d*
R LexCorp Security 2 (4/4) L-15@
R LexCorp Security 3 (4/4) L-16
R LexCorp Security 4 (4/4) J-14
R LexCorp Security 5 (4/4) K-14@
R LexCorp Security 6 (3/4) K-16

* Fortitude

HO: P9
LO: G9, P10, K11

Since I'm probably gonna miss this shot anyways, I won't try and outwit Flash's SS.

Lex #4 on Flash. Av7 vs dv17. Need a 10, roll 3+3 for 6. miss. Thought as much.

I will howerver have Joker outwit his Hypersonic Speed.

Joker will MM to to Security #6, then #2, then #3, then #4, then #5



Recap:

JLA:

[8]E HT Aquaman (1/7) E15
[6]R CJ Wonder Woman (5/8) D13
[12]R Unl Green Lantern* (7/7) E14
[]E HT Flash (7/7) F14
[5]E Green Arrow (5/6) E9 @
[]U Atom (2/6) E13

* Trick Shot

Vs.

The Injustice League:

R Circe (0/7) *KO'd*
U Prometheus (4/8) F-12
E Icn Joker* (6/6) K-15
R LexCorp Battlesuit 1 (-1/4) *KO'd*
R LexCorp Battlesuit 2 (0/4) *KO’d*
R LexCorp Security 1 (0/4) *KO’d*
R LexCorp Security 2 (4/4) L-15
R LexCorp Security 3 (4/4) L-16
R LexCorp Security 4 (4/4) J-14@
R LexCorp Security 5 (4/4) K-14
R LexCorp Security 6 (3/4) K-16

* Fortitude

HO: P9
LO: G9, P10, K11

Turn 7 (Player 2)

Free) Atom outwits Prometheus' Toughness.

1) GL TK's Wonder Woman to F13.

2) WW takes a swing on the 'Metheus; rolls a 7 (3,4) for a 15/hit, 4 clicks and the KO.

3) GA pushes to double-incap LCS #s 4 & 6; rolls a 6 (3,3) for a 15/hit on both, with a push for #4.

Recap:

JLA:

[8]E HT Aquaman (1/7) E15
[12]R CJ Wonder Woman (5/8) F13 @
[12]R Unl Green Lantern* (7/7) E14 @
[]E HT Flash (7/7) F14
[8]E Green Arrow (4/6) E9 @@
[]U Atom (2/6) E13

* Trick Shot

Vs.

The Injustice League:

R Circe (0/7) *KO'd*
U Prometheus (0/8) *KO'd*
E Icn Joker* (6/6) K-15
R LexCorp Battlesuit 1 (-1/4) *KO'd*
R LexCorp Battlesuit 2 (0/4) *KO’d*
R LexCorp Security 1 (0/4) *KO’d*
R LexCorp Security 2 (4/4) L-15
R LexCorp Security 3 (4/4) L-16
R LexCorp Security 4 (3/4) J-14@@
R LexCorp Security 5 (4/4) K-14
R LexCorp Security 6 (3/4) K-16@

* Fortitude

HO: P9
LO: G9, P10, K11

You can't hit Lex Corp Security #6, LEx #4 is blocking the shot, I'll assume you meant #5

Ok, Joker vs Flash. Av10 vs dv17. Need a 7. roll 5+3 for 8. Super Senses roll is 4. So that's 3 on Flash.

Joker will continue to outwit Hypersonic Speed

Joker will MM to to Security #6, then #2, then #3, then #4, then #5


Recap:

JLA:

[8]E HT Aquaman (1/7) E15
[12]R CJ Wonder Woman (5/8) F13 @
[12]R Unl Green Lantern* (7/7) E14 @
[]E HT Flash (4/7) F14
[8]E Green Arrow (4/6) E9 @@
[]U Atom (2/6) E13

* Trick Shot

Vs.

The Injustice League:

R Circe (0/7) *KO'd*
U Prometheus (0/8) *KO'd*
E Icn Joker* (6/6) K-15@
R LexCorp Battlesuit 1 (-1/4) *KO'd*
R LexCorp Battlesuit 2 (0/4) *KO’d*
R LexCorp Security 1 (0/4) *KO’d*
R LexCorp Security 2 (4/4) L-15
R LexCorp Security 3 (4/4) L-16
R LexCorp Security 4 (3/4) J-14
R LexCorp Security 5 (4/4) K-14
R LexCorp Security 6 (3/4) K-16

* Fortitude

HO: P9
LO: G9, P10, K11

Turn 8 (Player 2)

1) WW pushes to G14, taking one for the team.

Recap:

JLA:

[8]E HT Aquaman (1/7) E15
[12]R CJ Wonder Woman (4/8) F13 @@
[12]R Unl Green Lantern* (7/7) E14
[]E HT Flash (4/7) F14
[8]E Green Arrow (4/6) E9
[]U Atom (2/6) E13

* Trick Shot

Vs.

The Injustice League:

R Circe (0/7) *KO'd*
U Prometheus (0/8) *KO'd*
E Icn Joker* (6/6) K-15@
R LexCorp Battlesuit 1 (-1/4) *KO'd*
R LexCorp Battlesuit 2 (0/4) *KO’d*
R LexCorp Security 1 (0/4) *KO’d*
R LexCorp Security 2 (4/4) L-15
R LexCorp Security 3 (4/4) L-16
R LexCorp Security 4 (3/4) J-14
R LexCorp Security 5 (4/4) K-14
R LexCorp Security 6 (3/4) K-16

* Fortitude

HO: P9
LO: G9, P10, K11

Ok, I'll bite. Joker will push to attack Wonder Woman. Av10 vs dv15, Need a 5 to do 3 clix. Roll is barely good with 3+2 for 5. That's 3 clix to Wonder Woman. 1 to Joker for the push.

Lex Corp #6 will try to finish the job. Av 6 vs dv14. Need a 8, roll is 6+3 for 9. That's 1 more clix and the KO.

And I'll give it a random shot. Lex Corp #4 against Flash Av6 vs dv16 (+2 for energy sheild). Roll is carp! 6+6 for 12. Wow. Totally thought that was gonna be a throw away roll. Sorry, but looks like Flash takes another 2 clix.


Was gonna save outwit for HyperSonic, but now that it's gone, I'll outwit ForceBlast I guess


Joker will MM to to Security #4, then #6, then #3, then #5, then #2


Recap:

JLA:

[8]E HT Aquaman (1/7) E15
[12]R CJ Wonder Woman KOed!
[12]R Unl Green Lantern* (7/7) E14
[]E HT Flash (2/7) F14
[8]E Green Arrow (4/6) E9
[]U Atom (2/6) E13

* Trick Shot

Vs.

The Injustice League:

R Circe (0/7) *KO'd*
U Prometheus (0/8) *KO'd*
E Icn Joker* (5/6) K-15@@
R LexCorp Battlesuit 1 (-1/4) *KO'd*
R LexCorp Battlesuit 2 (0/4) *KO’d*
R LexCorp Security 1 (0/4) *KO’d*
R LexCorp Security 2 (4/4) L-15
R LexCorp Security 3 (4/4) L-16
R LexCorp Security 4 (3/4) J-14@
R LexCorp Security 5 (4/4) K-14
R LexCorp Security 6 (3/4) K-16@

* Fortitude

HO: P9
LO: G9, P10, K11