In other words, what Speedster said.

No, no no no no no. A million times no.

This is incorrect. Stealth's purpose is to imitate a character hiding so well that you cannot TARGET them. Stealth does NOT equal invisibility. It can be used to represent invisibility, but it's used to represent a lot of things. Batman doesn't actually turn invisible... the bad guys know he's there, but they can't see him well enough to draw a bead on him. They see a lot of cape and shadows, but if they actually tried firing on him, they'd miss his body every time because he's so good at avoiding fire at range, if he's got some terrain to assist him.

The reason you can't target someone behind a stealth figure is an extension of this. Batman's cape-and-shadows routine obstructs your view of the figure behind him, so you can't target the second figure either. There's just not enough of that person to see.

For figures with actual invisibility, stealth has been the closest approximation of the effects of that power available, so that's what HC uses. Now that we have special powers, I'm interested to see how they do Invisible Woman this summer. She doesn't need terrain to be invisible, so she should have a special power that blocks LoF all the time, for at least part of her dial. Not sure if they'll do this, but it would be interesting.

OK, tangent over. Stealth is not invisibility. If it was, you'd think close combat would be hindered as well, because it's awful hard to hit someone you can't see. It just makes the person so hard to target that you can't get an effective shot off - which is why PW was changed to allow it to affect stealthed figures.

That make more sense now?

are characters on elevated terrain able to see stealth characters?

Depends.
Hindering terrain doesn't affect the line of fire drawn between an elevated character and a grounded one, unless the target is in a square of hindering terrain.
So, if your grounded Batman is standing on clear terrain, an elevated Joker will be able to attack him (assuming the line of fire is otherwise clear and Bats is within range).
If, however, Batman is standing on hindering terrain, Stealth works and the Joker won't be able to shoot him.

EDIT:

Right. It's also important to note that someone on elevated terrain (or a giant) will also be able to see someone standing on the other side of even a Stealthed Batman, as he'll be able to look over... whatever it is that he's mistaking Batman to be.

No.

But anyways, the funny thing about Stealth is, among other things, is that if a Stealthed figure is adjacent, you can actually hit the character. You can't see the opponent, oh no, but you can punch or kick the target. And yet you still can't blindly shoot in the general direction where you know an opponent is, and wish for a lucky shot.

Spirit, according to the dictionary.....

Stealth - Having or providing the ability to prevent detection.

If the bad guys know Batman is there, but cannot draw a bead on him, then he has been detected and is therefore not stealth. Rather, would not that be dodging.

Here is how it lays out in my mind.
1. Stealthed figured is undetected.
2. Since stealth figure is undetected, they cannot be blocking line of sight.
3. Since line of sight is not blocked, any target behind the stealthed figure should be a legal target if within range.

What you have in your mind is not necesary the same that the people of Game Design have in their minds...

Oooh, are we playing "Dictionary Wars" now? Because I have several dictionaries...

Stealth, noun; cautious and surreptitious action or movement
adjective; secretive; trying to avoid notice

So by those definitions, if the bad guys know Batman is there, but cannot draw a bead on him, then he's being cautious and surreptitious in his actions and secretive, and is therefore being stealthy.

And unfortunately for you, that's not the way the game plays. You might as well argue that INV means a figure can't be KOed, because the definition of invincibility is "too powerful to be defeated or overcome". The names of the powers are flavouring, meant to give you a quick idea of the power, and not define the power itself. Since the introduction of character cards and special powers the game has moved to address this, but it still doesn't change the fact that there is no "fog of war" in Heroclix. Every figure knows where every other figure is on the battlefield at all times. And since the bad guys know where Batman is (but just can't hit him), then he blocks line of fire to all figures behind him at the same elevation.

And now you're comparing what's called out-of-game knowledge to in-game knowledge. D&D'ers and other RPGers know what I'm talking about. You (the player) have out-of-game knowledge that tells you Batman is in Stealth and can't be seen, even though you're looking right at him. Your characters, however, do not have that knowledge. What a character knows is in-game knowledge. Using out-of-game knowledge for in-game purposes is called metagaming and is typically frowned upon in RPGs. Of course, this isn't a roleplaying game so metagame away! But don't presume to think just because you know where a character is then your characters would know it, too.

I guess I always knew we'd have this talk some day. Maybe it's a little sooner than I would have wanted, but it's only natural that you would want to know about Stealth. You see, when a Batman and a Coke Machine love each other very much, they want to be as close as two pieces of plastic can be...

Son, I've been playing RPGs since before you were born. Literally. So yeah, I know what you're talking about.Again, this is WRONG. He can't be targetted. That's what is required for Line of Fire (note there is no "Line of Sight" in Heroclix). If he couldn't be seen, you shouldn't be able to hit him in close combat, either. For most stealth figures, that's what the power represents - the ability to avoid being the target of a ranged attack even though it's plain as day that the character is present in the square. It makes it near impossible to hit the figure with a ranged attack. Sure, a "wild" shot in the general direction would have a theoretical chance of success, but it's below the level of the game's ability to calculate odds to represent this (like having to roll three critical hits in a row to succeed).

Stealth's failings are in applying the power to someone like Invisible Woman, who actually can turn invisible. The stealth power was merely the closest game approximation for her powers, so that's what she was given. With the new set, for at least part of her dial she should have a special power that represents her actual invisibility. Stealth is still fine for part of the dial, since she was forever knocking over lamps or moving switches on walls and allowing the bad guys to figure out roughly where she was, without actually being able to fire on her (except through area effects or grappling her in close combat).

I agree with you about the metagaming issues. It's the reason I've long argued that the Skrull/shape change roll should take place before a charge or running shot action is taken, rather than midway through, because it just doesn't make sense that a character would start an attack against a Skrull, see the Skrull change to a friendly character, then stop their attack. I'd still like to see this change made in the PAC -"At the beginning of your opponent's turn, roll 1d6 for each figure with the Skrull TA. Each figure that makes a successful roll cannot be the target of any ranged or close combat attack this turn". Maybe with Secret Invasion, they'll finally... nah, I doubt it.

Some elements of this game just don't make sense, but Stealth isn't one of those. You know a character is in a square, even if it's difficult or impossible to see them, but you can't draw enough of a bead on them to have even a small chance to hit. And since they are in the way, you can't draw enough of a bead on the character behind them, either, because they're blocking your view or distracting you enough to reduce the possibility of hitting the character behind them.

drop the '(or a giant)' part and you are right.

Giants draw LOF like normal (more than a little counterintuitive but there ya go!)

If you want help then don't be condescending.

It was an example, not to be taken literally, which I thought was obvious since I was using a non-HeroClix element to give the example. It seems your biggest issue with everything so far is a severe attachment to literal meanings in an environment where the meanings of most terms are completely replaced so that they work for the environment.

You're making this a deeper issue than it should ever be. A character can't use a ranged combat attack to target another character who is standing behind or in hindering terrain and is able to use the Stealth power, but that same attacking character could attack the character with Stealth using a close combat attack.

Does it make sense in reality? No. If you're hidden then you're hidden. If you're not then you're not. Realistically, Stealth should provide a chance to completely avoid all attacks, whether close combat or ranged combat. Is HeroClix realistic? No. Neither will applications of reality-based concepts to HeroClix. You've either got to deal with it or leave. That's really your only options.

The Charge/Running Shot/Hypersonic Speed/Move and Attack against Skrull Team Ability/Shape Change would be most accurate if the Skull/Shape Change were rolled at the before the action in which the attack would occur. So if a character is going to Charge a Skrull, the Skrull controller rolls before the character moves. If the roll is successful in avoiding the attack then the character can Charge someone else or take a different action entirely.

Who said I wanted help? I think you have me confused with someone else, because I'm the one saying not to stick to literal definitions here.

I disagree. Stealth, again, does not mean hidden/invisible/not there/whatever. It means you have some way of avoiding distance attacks. Ranged combat is inherently different than close combat. It requires an extra level of skill to shoot someone from range than to hit them when you're face to face. Try hitting a target twenty feet away with your eyes closed. Now try punching a target six inches away. Realistically, the latter is a heck of a lot easier than the former.

Isn't that what I said?