That sounds about right.

Is that one of those "can't beats can" situations?

More like Pym paricles says the character has the symbol... well, so do normal giants. And what happens when a giant gets Earthbound?






It becomes

Speaking of gaining Earthbound, has the Aerial Baffler been errated to not "gain Earthbound" anymore?

QUOTE: FROM THE Aerial Baffler

Why would it receive errata? It is what it is.

So why does the power take effect over the feat? I have a feat that says "can" and a power that says "can't". Otherwise, couldn't I just say Earthbound takes a effect first and then Pym Particles so I get the giant damage symbol?

Because "gains" isn't a defined game term or mechanic. Should be "possesses" or "can use".

Its not game breaking by any stretch, just a whole new crop of figs (that can be flying giants with Pym particles) are effected by this is all.

I'm with you. I don't know the intended use of the feat, but "the spirit of the feat" suggests that it should take place over earthbound because sometimes EB is given to indicate a fig cannot fly, that doesn't mean Pym couldn't make them grow instead.

"Gains" currently appears in about five feats' text and means the same thing as "possesses" or "has." I don't think it needs errata for that, as it's pretty clear what it's doing.

Though arguably the Aerial Baffler should have errata since the power in question is now called Earthbound/Neutralized.

Earthbound was changed with Fantastic Four. It now changes all combat symbols to standard symbols. Wing and dolphin are changed to boot, duo and crosshairs are changed to standard, striped shield is changed to standard, giant and colossal are changed to standard.

There's just an obvious rules dysfunction glaring at me with scenarios like these that no one else ever seems to see.

You mean those five feats that were made before "possess" became a defined game term?

People always think these things seem clear, but then there's always some question that comes up that no one has a clear answer for. It's good to be clear by using defined game terms.

Except that they are both continous states; it isn't like Earthbound suddenly goes away just because you've got this feat. That's not a terribly good argument for or against this point.

If it helps, sure, go with the "can't" over the "can"; as Norm has pointed out before, the more restrictive/negative condition is usually the best place to start.

Not defined, per se, no. But when "gain" has appeared in past instances (like, say, Force Field) it has been consistently ruled to be equal to "possess" (for example, you can Outwit the Toughness gained via Force Field). If it helps, we can see if this is something for the next player's guide, but since other uses of gain (like the afore mentioned Force Field) haven't ever been errata'd, I kind of doubt this will be.

Yeah, so what? Just keep your flying characters away from the Baffler and you are all good.

How is this a dysfunction? Arial Baffler has a certain function: it causes flying characters to gain Earthbound. If that function happens to have some unfortunate consequences for flying giants or such, too bad for them. Position your characters better next time


And that's why we are here: to provide those answers.

Does this help?

For the record, I remember that when Avengers was released it was asked if Dragon Man (the first flying giant) would shrink to normal size if given Earthbound, either through the Baffler or the Crosswinds BFC. The answer was 'yeah, sure', and then there were some shrunken lizard jokes.
Point is: The problem is not new. It's been there for a while, and not fixed.

If they're both continuous then shouldn't the character have both symbols?

It, at least, makes sense.

"Gain" wasn't errata'd to "possess" in those instances because it was made clear on the old WK boards that rulings wouldn't be officially made on retired elements of the game. With retirement not in place, it would be nice to have all those things updated.

I was pointing that out to canaaron since it seems he's still under the impression that Earthbound only affects characters with the wind speed symbol.

The dysfunction is with Pym Particles, not Aerial Baffler. It's a dysfunction when one effect stops another without a clear explanation. The less clear the explanation is, the more it sounds like, "Because I said so."

Questions are asked because the answers aren't defined in the rule book. Some of those questions are unavoidable, but the ones that can be avoided should be so the ones that can't be avoided can be given the attention they require to answer correctly.

Not anymore than it did beforehand.

Retirement is still very much in place. Just because most venues are choosing not to enforce it does not mean it is gone.


And the RA and GD will do their best to make sure that issues are answered in print/future rules. But they can not possible cover every single instance of every single power interaction, feat effect on LOF, SPs mixing with BFC, etc. And that is where we (and by that I mean both us Deputies and Norm the RA) come in and try to answer things here. Like I said: this is why we are here.

So what exactly do you need, then?

Okay, let me try asking this in a different way.

You have an effect produced by a feat.

You have another effect produced by an object that reverses or undoes the effect of the feat.

Or you could look at is as...

You have an effect produced by an object.

You have another effect produced by a feat that reverses or undoes the effect of the object.

If they're both continuous effects then the character should always have the standard combat symbols except for its damage symbol which would be the giant damage symbol. If continuous then they'd both be constantly changing the symbol back and forth.

So why is it that when it matters, it's stated that the character has the standard symbol instead of the giant symbol? Why can't the active player decide which symbol it has?

When did that happen?

Not a terribly good argument since errata from "gain" to "possess" in all such instances was requested ages ago and it was never done.

Same as always. Clarification. Give me the 'why' and I can figure out the 'how'.