I may be missing this or just not understanding you clearly. What leads you to believe that Leap/Climb isn't in use until the attack is made?

Because all it is doing is allowing you to attack a character at a different elevation. It isn't like you are actually giving the character an action to specifically activate Leap/Climb like you do with Running Shot, Pulse Wave, or most other powers; it is just something that happens as a result of a close combat action. Furthermore, you don't actually need to be adjacent to a an opposing character to give your character a close combat action (you do need to be adjacent to make a close combat attack, but nothing says you must be adjacent for a plain ol' close combat action that would lead to said attack).

But, as I said before:

In otherwords, this is not official-from-GD-type answer. Just the way I see it given then information at hand.

I used to have that problem.

Now I just think about baseball.





As for the question at hand, I agree with normalview.

My reasoning is that Lunge is setting up an exceptional case from the beginning.

. . . . . .
. A . . B .
. . . . . .
Can A declare a close combat action/attack against B? No. It is illegal to do so (just like being unable to declare a ranged attack against a guy you cannot see).

Lunge allows a bit of a loophole in the declaration, though. Basically the ruling is that IF the attack WILL BE legal then the action can be declared, but it doesn't really become legal until after you move. Since that is when it becomes legal, it can't have happened until then.

That's the way I see it.

But the movement can't happen until after the action has been given by the wording of the feats and power.

L/C activates when you declare a CCA (not when the attack happens). Lunge also activates when you declare the action (before the attack). Passenger activates when you use L/C. It seems to me that these all activate at the same time, when the CCA is declared.

That's what it looks like to me, too, but we're missing something, I guess.

Sorry Harp, but I´m a little lost with your answer.
I thought that L/C cannot be used to attack with flurry because it needs a close combat action too instead of a close combat attack allowed by flurry...

Why does flurry require adjacency? (I know the power description says "up to two adjacent oposing characters")
I´m just asking cause a close combat attack does not need adjacency to be made.
I´m just thinking of Giants for example.
Is this cause the power description is from a time when a close combat attack could not be made out of adjacency? (L/C is a close combat action, I´m talking of a simple attack without the use of powers that could change this fact)
Or is it a limitation for the use of that power to regulate how powerfull it would become?

That isn't the problem. Flurry is a close combat action; if that was the end of it, Flurry and the "different elevation" part of L/C would work together just fine.

Where the problem lies is:

FLURRY Give this character a close combat action. It makes two separate close combat attacks as free actions (making two separate attack rolls) against one or two adjacent targets. Resolve the first attack before making the second. If this character loses Flurry before it makes the second attack, it can’t make the second attack.

While L/C does allow a character to make a close combat attack against a target at a different elevation, it does not actually grant adjacency. Since Flurry specifies an adjacent target(s), that lack of adjacency is crucial.

Yes, normally it does. FF rules, page 9:

Close Combat
Close combat represents hand-to-hand and melee weapon attacks. Your character must be adjacent to a target to make a close combat attack.

Giant-Size ability grans a specific exception to that general rule on page 9:

Close combat attacks. This character can make close combat attacks against elevated characters, even when this character is grounded. This character can also make close combat attacks against target opposing characters up to two squares away, even if a character (friendly or opposing) or an object occupies a square between this character and the target; the attack can’t be made if blocking terrain, elevated terrain, or a wall would block an otherwise clear line of fire between this character and the target.

However, nothing in that exception actually grants adjacency (it merely makes close combat attacks not require adjacency), so powers that do require adjacency (like Quake or Flurry) still can't be used two squares away or on characters on a different elevation.

Thank you normalview :D

An argument could be made that L/C removes the adjacency requirement for any CCA. As you quoted earlier:

In essence, every CCA requires adjacency, not just powers such as Flurry or quake. Then add:


L/C then allows a fig to make CC attacks against another fig on a different elevation even though they are not adjacent. The purpose of that part of L/C is to get around the adjacency obstacle present when two figs are only separated by an elevated terrain line. It then seems practical to me that you could apply that same logic to any CCA such as Flurry or Quake. Does that make any sense?

Up to a point, sure. However, you still can't get around the fact that Quake and Flurry require adjacency. L/C does not grant that adjacency; it merely allows you to target a character when a close combat action is given.

My point is that Every Close Combat Action requires adjacency, not just Flurry and Quake. If L/C allows a fig to target another fig regardless of the targets elevation during a normal CCA, why would you treat that instance any differently than Flurry. They both require adjacency. Yet you seem to keep pointing out that Flurry requires adjacency as if it is different than a regular old no-frills Close Combat Action (which also requires adjacency).

"I'd fight Gandhi."

Good answer.

L/C overrides the rulebook's general requirement of being adjacent, but it does not override the requirement within those powers.

You start with this...
Page 9: "Your character must be adjacent to a target to make a close combat attack."

Add Leap/Climb...
"When you give this character a close combat action, it can target a character regardless of the target’s elevation."

Now you have overridden what the rulebook says is an allowable target.

Now toss in Flurry...
"It makes two separate close combat attacks as free actions (making two separate attack rolls) against one or two adjacent targets."

While L/C no longer requires adjacency, Flurry still does.

Why does Flurry get tossed in after Leap/Climb? You have to activate Flurry before you can activate Leap/Climb with it so why do the effects of Flurry override the effects of Leap/Climb? To me, it's like, "Flurry says this, but then Leap/Climb says that", instead of the other way around.