You're getting into minutae that generally can be worked out by players. So let's be up front about this - your question is ONLY relevant if a judge gets called over because 2 players could not resolve the problem on their own.

In that case, as a judge, I would ask "what was said". From your description in the first post, he announced the attack on the ninja. You announced the ninja's defense. He hit. End of story. Is it harsh? Yes. If I were you in the scenario, this wouldn't get to a judge's attention, I would just accept that I forgot to announce defend and learn better for next time. If I were the attacker in the scenario, I would ask that you allow me to reconsider the attack given the new information. But that's my personal style of play and that's not how everyone plays.

Asking for an OFFICIAL ruling? It's easy - what was announced - that's what was in play. If the announcement did not allow for the defender to have time to properly respond, it becomes a more complicated scenario. If the announced action was decidedly illegal (through non-optional game effects) it becomes a different scenario.

Are you saying that Defend needs to be announced to be in effect? Or does Defend happen automatically?

Neither one, in this case. He's saying the the player with Defend didn't tell his opponent about that Defend because he forgot and, instead, told his opponent that he only needed a 4 to hit the target.


Since he told his opponent specifically what was needed to hit, that was a good as saying Defend wasn't used... even if that was a mistake on the player's part.

Then my follow up for nbperp in light of his post is: Does Defend need to be announced to be in effect or does Defend happen automatically?

If I was called over to adjudicate the situation, I would first ask "what was said". If something was said that indicates the power is or is not in use (you need to roll an X to succeed) I would rule to that.

If nothing were said, I would use my good sense to figure out what was the most likely intention (i.e., getting a higher defense against an attack, getting a lower defense if a support attempt was tried) and rule that way.

That may stick in folk's craw, and I'm at peace with that.

I am ok with that as a personal judging style, but I think we need to be real careful that this doesnt just become a policy.

I am starting to have some trouble with the way the line is getting blurred between the Game Mechanic "USE" and the English definition "USE".

While a players powers by Default are in "USE" at the start of the action this does not mean that the effects which have a choice are by default chosen for a player in his best interests.

The Power that most comes to mind is Probability Control. Its pretty well spelled out that the choice on some powers can occur or not occur in the midle of an action and has to be clearly specified by the player.

A player cant decide after seeing how an opponent plans to divy out his damage to say, oh wait I should have rolled my PC using that power in this manner is in my best interests.

Its extremely important to insure that the "USE" of a power that grants you a decision does not dictate the decision you make.

When a power/ability says you, "CAN USE power x" that decision needs to be made up front with the action because a power is either in USE or not in USE at the start of an action.

However, if a power/ability says you, "CAN apply effect x" that decision needs to be verbally communicated at the time of the effect. USE of the power alone is not enough to specify the best way to implement the power. Thats a player decision and the judge/rules cant start making player decisions for the players.

The problem with DEFEND is its not a "CAN USE power x" its a "CAN apply effect x"

Think of all the other potential "can apply effect" problems....

• Super Strength - Oh I could have picked up this object when I charged. I guess I did because it would have been in my best interest.
  
• Carry - Oh I could have carried my friend with me. I guess I did because it would have been in my best interest.
  
• Feats - Oh I could have used my Contingency Plan tokens. I guess I did because it would have been in my best interest.
  

The most important thing to remember here is that a power can be in USE but if it gives you a choice, you can still choose not to apply its effect even when the power is in "USE".

If this were not the case the JSA/Defender TA would be the most useless TA out there.

I think there is a rules solution but that the problem will never go away. The rules solution can and should dictate a deliberateness to all aspects of an action and there should be a kind of script that has to be followed - by both players - to play correctly.

The problem will persist because there's no denying that 90% of the time "Captain Dogooder hits Weasel-Guy for 4" and the dropping of dice is perfectly fine. And so the rules issue will continue to come up "I want to use shape change and he rolled too quickly".

But I think that if we can get a baseline for correct communication of effects into the rules, then players will have greater consciousness of the need to overtly declare things for correct communication.

I must be missing something, because I fail to see how.

The TA never specifies which character has to do the borrowing and which is doing the lending. Say for the sake of the argument that the Defenders TA is always in use and must be used... you could still choose, action to action, to first borrow this high defense value to protect from the incoming attack and then, with the next action, choose the lowest defense value to make Support an easier roll, and then choose to just share the middle of the road defense value with the next action just because.

Fundamentally, becuase of that choice, it doesn't really matter if a game effect like this is constantly in use or not.

Are you saying once and action is declaree, but no dice are rolled, that the action cant be changed? In your example, if doc strange declares mystics when he is targeted, cant i then choose not to target? In the OP's situation, if the attacker targeted the ninja and the opposing player said he was using defend, couldnt the attacker cancel the action and choose something else to do?

Do the rules require this?

And that may be the solution. If so, then the requirement for such communication should be in the rules.

It does because both both effects would occur at the same time.
The rule on page 5 dictates that the active player not the defending player gets to determine in which order effects are applied if two effects occur at the same time.

Rulebook p. 5
The Active Player would always choose to first resolve copying the lower defense.

If the use of the TA implies that you must also use its effect, then there is no way around it.

Yes. I am pretty sure you saw this in one of those other threads that have been all the rage lately, but just in case, here it is again (straight from the Comprehensive Tournament Rules doc):

1.2.13 Information: All information part of a HeroClix tournament once it begins is public information, expect information on any dial not visible in the current slot, and any information specifically indicated as non-public by game rules, tournament rules, or in-game abilities. Spectators or players who are not involved in a match do not have a right to public information about it.

So if a player asks you what your DV is against, say, a ranged attack, you can not hide that information. If you wanted to be a sticky wicket about it, you could simply allow the player to see all your characters/cards/placement/etc and have him make his own calculations... but if he were then to say, "So just a 16 then?" when you're sitting on top of hindering (or something else that would make it not 16) and you didn't correct him... well, see Norm's Defend answer above.

There using Defenders when an attack is made does not constitute a simultaneous effect.

If it DID, the you wouldn't even need to make up hypothetical scenarios to see what you are trying to described: as soon as a player USING THE EXISTING RULES AND TIMING tries to replace its combat value with a higher one, then the active player could say, "No, I want you to borrow that lower combat value."

Here is another example.

Superman has HSS and Super Strength...
He moves past a Heavy Object on his way to the target.
He picks up the HvyObj with his Super Strength and bangs him for 5.
Then as he moves away he first passes a Light Object....
Since his Super Strength is in USE does he have to pick up the LightObject?
Or can he forgoe the USE of Super Strength and continue moving to the HeavyObject and pick that up instead?