Wow, bizarrome's issues with Marvel really come close to my own. I grew up a HUGE Marvel fan, but have had to watch my interest wane over the years, especially recently. I got back into the X-titles in late 1999 (formerly my favorite books for 10+ years) with the promise of a wrap-up to "The 12" storyline. And all was well... until Claremont picked up the books again. EEEEEEEEEEEEEwwwwwwwwwwww. Then the "Semi-Ultimates" come along, and I gave up the titles completely. For Marvel(while I still love the characters), the Avengers is my book of choice, plus a few well-selected minis (Johns' Thing mini was excellent!). But in the last 3 years, I've moved to the Distinguished Competition. The rest of my monthly habit is almost all DC (well, plus Dark Horse's Star Wars books): Green Arrow, Green Lantern, Hawkman, Aquaman, Batman, JLA, JSA and Birds of Prey. The characters and stories are infinitely more interesting, in my opinion. What was the main thing to drive me away from Mighty Marvel?

The ####ed Ultimate crud.

Like many on this thread, I blame the Ultimate line for my dissatisfaction with Marvel. I get so tired of reading garbage like:

"Ultimate books stay TRUE to the CHARACTERS." Who buys that line of tripe? Hulk screams "HULK HORNY!" instead of "HULK SMASH!"? Not the real Hulk. Thor is a burned out pothead> Not the real Thor. Wolverine is so jealous of Cyclops that he leaves Scott for dead? Not the real Wolverine. So on, and so on...

"Well, DC did the same with CRISIS, so where's the problem?" The problem is that CRISIS was vastly different from the Ultimate line. Crisis fixed holes in the continuity for DC; it didn't create a NEW continuity alongside the original. The post-crisis DC universe was esentially the same; the characters were not vastly changed.

I don't understand Marvel's thinking; I never have. If a book or series of books isn't selling, FIX IT! Don't abandon it or "relaunch" if it's not necessary. Some people claim that the real talent at Marvel is on the Ultimate books. WELL? Move that talent to the REAL Marvel books, and watch those books (and sales) improve.

Wow, this was long. Thanks for reading so far, if you actually did. I feel better.

The only Marvel I regularly read is the FF and their spinoffs and the "Ultimates" (its self: not -spidy or X anything) I've been reading marvel since FF#5 and Spiderman #3 (yea, in 1964-the oldest comic I still have that I bought is a 10cent Dell "Rio Bravo") and in the late 60s read all the marvels (I still have chunks of the FF #44 thru52 and Spidy #30 thru 33, lots of Ironman {Tales of Suspense} and GiantMan {Tales to Astonish} and Uncany X-Men #1thru51,#52 thru 66-the first time they got cancled). Now I read more indys: Usagi Jumbo, Hellboy, A Distant Soil, Boneyard, Dork Tower, Dogwitch...
Most of the Marvel stuff has changed so much (and spread out so much-how many mutant titles are there?) that I just can't jump in and get any enjoyment out of them. I do like the mew take on my old favorite in the Ultimates and the FF are like family.

Me personally think they should just change the name of Marvel to Ultimate because i got tired of them only having a small band of heroes any more if u go the Marvel.com u look at the bios there might say 40 -50 in there and they seem to be mostly concentrating on the ultimates and i think if they just cancel all the other books and just start over with the heroes they would get a lot more people to come back to them i know a person who owns his own comic store its where we play heroclix mk mw and magic yu gi oh etc he admits that he hardly sells marvel anymore and dc as well except for the ultimates oh well any way thats my 2 cents thanks

but im still a mmm make mine marvel

They cancelled: Amazing Spider Man, Peter Parker: Spider Man, X-treme X-men, Uncanny X-men, New X-Men, Wolverine, X-statix, Weapon X, Avengers, and Daredevil and nobody told me? Oh well. I geuss Marvel does hate us all.

get used to it...I was crushed when they canceled most of my favorite titles...I stopped buying comics in 1995 (started buying them in 1982)....my favorite comic book was "on a pale horse" by pierce anthony, drawn by okomata...6 issue limited series ...took 2 years to release the first 5 issues....company closed before they released issue #6

when Green lantern (NEW SERIES) Hit issue #50 and that total idiot Kevin Dooley destroyed the corp, killed kilawog, made guy gardner powerless and hal went insane. I had just started reading it at issue #1...so I decided to live in denial and and go back and start buying the original series of GL and read an issue a week for about a year before I stopped reading all together....ahhh but in the world I lived in there was still a corp, hal was still the GL and there was no kyle...

so live in denial, buy back issues and stop paying for new comics

Good Luck
Mr Boo

First if you don't like it, don't buy it. It's really the best solution. I don't like Black Panther, so I don't buy it. I don't say I won't buy Marvel comics because this one book (or in your case three) is causing me dissatisfaction.

Ultimate books are just what if's really. They are different takes on old charectors. Why hate them for that? Ultimate Hulk isn't supposed to be MU Hulk. Same goes with Thor, Cyclops, and Wolverine.

If you don't like them that's cool, but don't say they ruin your enjoyment of the company.

Well, it's true, so what else should I say? Allow me to elaborate. I feel that the success of the Ultimate line is unfortunately bleeding into the other books, causing them to be written in a more "Ultimate" style. New X-Men is a case in point. I can detect very little difference (as others on this thread have mentioned) between that book and the Ultimate X-Men. It seems to be happening, slowly but surely, in other Marvel books, as well. Besides, it's MY opinion, so I'll say what I think. If you don't like my opinion, great, but don't presume to tell me what to say.

Plus, the talk that's been bouncing around about Marvel considering abandoning the original books for an all-Ultimate roster is a bit disheartening. Plus the pressure others in the industry have been placing on DC to follow suit. Thank the gods that DC is choosing to stand by their core universe.

Believe me, I don't need to be told the old "don't like it, don't buy it" chestnut. That decision was made long ago. But I still fear that the almighty dollar and new, "hipper" readership (supposedly) drawn in by the Ultimate line will cause the originals to be left for dead by Marvel. Marvel Comics and I have too much history to see something like that happen. And I'm very pleased to find some like-minded people here in the Forums to discuss this with.

[Pardon my edit, but I forgot this the first time. I guess my main issue with these "reimaginings" or whatever Marvel is calling them this week, is that they bear so little resemblance to the original that I don't see how they can qualify as a "different take on an old character." If you give Superman a big gun, a ZZTop beard, a mohawk, make him Hispanic, change his costume to lime green and give him a bad attitude and no compunctions against killing, is he still Superman? Where is the line drawn? Why not just invent NEW characters to tell these stories instead of creating so many new, barely related versions of the originals? I realize my example is extreme and ludicrous, but that's the point. If the fundamentals that make the characters great are to be changed so drastically, just create something completely new.

I don't enjoy the ultimates, and I don't but them. I have been stocking up on back issues and exploring DC much like the others on this thread. If you don't understand what we mean when we say that the ultimates have ruined our enjoyment of Marvel comics...well I'm just not sure how to explain it any clearer. You read a seeminly never ending novel for decades and one day the novel is replaced with something drastically different. It's only natural to be disappointed. It's just that simple. We will all get over it eventually but I for one reserve the right to complain.
I understand where the Green Lantern fan is comming from, I collected Excalibur from issue one only to watch it die a slow horrible death when the original creative team left in mid story arc. In my world the story that was the X-Men came to an end prior to the ultimate story line, and this is the way I will remember Marvel. My Hulk doesn't shout about being horny, my Cap. doesn't kick people in the groin, and did I just read that Thor is a pot-head? :disappoin
Just like the age of apokolips I will consider this an alternate timeline and never part of continuity.
In the meantime I recommend Green Arrow and Birds of Prey. Also Wolverine's solo book has yet to go ultimate (completely) and I am still sticking with this marvel title. for now anyway.
-Good luck to those in search of a decent title...for now, make mine back issues!

I read marvel from about Uncanny X-men#130 on till around X-men #300. And the last few years I was mostly just hanging on from habit. I think it was just boredom from repetition that killed it for me. How many times can you read the new "Ultra-Cool-character-with-a-mysterious-past" storyline? Nothing changed and the changes that did happen were anoyyingly handled. I actually like the Ultimate books just because I've given up on most Marvel stuff. I wouldn't like reading the old stuff treated like that (as many say the GM X-men does) but I can enjoy it for what it is. The only 2 comics that really mater to me anymore are the new runs of Fantastic Four and The Legion. A simple test for me on how good a book is do characters that have been together for years and years actually seem like they have? Those 2 books are about the only two that really pull it off INMHO. Reed and Sue actually seem married, people in the Legion seem like buds. None of this "great respect among comrades" stuff that you get often in Avengers or X-men. I never read an issue of Avenegers that made me feel like any of the characters would hang out and maybe have a beer on the weekends.
Ok my long ramble is over.

Tarnish

I think that was my problem actually. I read for 15+ years and eventually I longed for an ending, a resolution. The "never ending story" just served make it all seem less important to me. Any major change/death/revalation was only good until the next creative team came along. How many times can they kill Magneto before people stop caring? Nothing seemed permanant and slowly I lost any abillity to connect to the characters.

Tarnish

It's funny that Tarnish mentions Legion, as this is the title/group that I usually point to when the discussion of continuity and changes in tone come up. I've been reading comics for 22+ years now, pretty much since 1980 or so. Couple that with back issues I bought when I was younger and I've got stuff dating back to the mid-70s. Reading for this long has taught me that there is no such thing as a sacred idea in comics and every single title will change over time. I've seen Marv Wolfman's Teen Titans set the market on fire then crash and burn. I've seen Legion shift in tone so many times I can't even begin to keep track. The Batman I read about 20 years ago was drastically different from the Batman of 10 years ago, and the Batman of current books.

Marvel is no exemption to this either. Captain America has given up his shield in disgust and called himself Nomad, he's been kicked out of the role and replaced by John Walker, now we are finding out there is more to his origin than we knew originally. Spider-Man went through some really dark stuff in the McFarlane era only to be followed by bash-em type stories from Erik Larsen. Imagine how fans of the original X-Men series felt when they picked up Giant Size #1 and X-Men #94.

I'm not trying to tell anybody that they can or can't be upset when a new creator comes along and creates a fresh look at a character. Just try to remember that there are virtually no characters in the industry who haven't been through some major changes and revisions over time. The current run on X-Men or Hawkman or Iron Man might not appeal to you, but to some people out there this will be the definitive version of the characters.

I can understand your lack of interest with the never ending story. I guess what I'm saying is wouldn't it have been great if when they killed magneto he stayed dead, for at least a decade or so? In DC when they kill you... you usually stay dead for a while, it actually means something. Characters age, have kids, things evolve. In Marvel when they run out of ideas they press reset. All characters live forever, and never age. Why write a great story when you can rehash spiderman's origin again?
Aunt May is apparently a cyborg...refusing to die. Actually she died and was promptly raised from the dead.
Speaking of raising the dead, how about those Hand ninjas. From what I've read they have reased more people from the dead than they have actually killed. If they make it into Hero Clix I think they should have support.

Good god yes! I agree with you on most of your ideas. It's just that The Ultimate stuff doesn't ruin anything for me because they forced me to stop caring about the old versions. I think Ultimate lines will burn themselves ou though. Right now it's fresh and new, but Marvel is already starting to make some of the same mistakes again. The problem is there is no final Authority that can say: Magneto is DEAD! I don't care how cool a story you wrote that will bring him back!

Tarnish

P.S. Legion changed so much with the Zero Hour reboot that I gave it up until recently. It was worse that the Ultimate stuff. Over the course of 5 issues they basically Ultimized things, starting the whole continuity over with differnet versions of the characters. I'm with you in that I want change and permanace with the things that happen, not full scale rebooting and killing of a line.

Tarnish

Priceless, that joke made my day.

Legion has easily been my biggest on-again/off-again love affair with comics. I came in right before the Great Darknes Saga, arguably the highlight of Legion history for many fans. After that the book sort of wandered aimlessly for awhile. When Keith Giffen's V4 era hit it was like a slap upside the head. The story was given a more realistic tone and was definitely darker than what came before. Despite the darkness, things changed and evolved in ways you would rarely see in other mainstream comics. The book felt like it was going places and told some really amazing stories. Then, as Tarnish said, came the Zero Hour reboot. What I had enjoyed so much was thrown out and replaced with "the Ariche Legion." After sticking it out for awhile I moved on, only to come back recently. It turns out after a few years the stories have gotten incredible again and the tone is more similar to what I once loved.

Well, that's good, since it IS an alternate timeline and has NEVER been meant to be part of the regular Marvel continuim.

I understand being displeased that they have cancelled your titles and all, I mean I'm still dissapointed that they cancelled Quantum Leap, but I really can't see how it is the fault of the Ultimate lines.

In any case, the only reason I started reading Marvel comics again was because the Ultimate line. It is a more realistic, more contained story-line. With only three titles and the occasional mini-series I can easily follow the entire Universe.

It is perfect for someone like me, who likes the more adult style, the shorter timeline, and who doesn't really care about the convulted time line of the standard MU.

Now, I can understand if you're upset that the "Ultimate Style" is leaking into the more mainstream comics, but surely you can agree that comics go through phases of being cool and sucking, depending on corporate control and who is writing it.

Also, Thor is not a pot-head, he is just an ecologically-minded type person, and is concerned with the Earth and what not.