But so many things in the rules are spelled out exactly for the player. I'm just used to it. Here was something that, if read one way, didn't make sense with the ruling. I went to the rule book for clarification and found the wording a little wanting. BigSoph did present way of looking at things that I can live with but it was nice to know I wasn't the only one who can see it the way I did (thanks, GG).

To the OP.....I have had this conversation before, and the conflict lies within the wording of the rulebook, which flat out says that you apply knockback AFTER damage has been dealt, (dismissing charge) and the wording of the Player's Guide, which says to check for powers that ignore knockback before damage is taken (taking charge into account). Or something along those lines. They are in direct conflict with one another, but all the rules dep.'s say the players guide trumps the rulebook. So, there you have it. If you look hard enough, you can can find the thread where I believe Harpua says he never noticed the wording change, and then goes on to say that the player's guide didn't change with the rulebook. Or that the non-update that did or did not take place makes the player's guide newer than the rulebook....or some nonsense.

Ha! Thank you. I'll check that PG.

The very first sentence of the knock back section tells you when knock back is actually generated:

When a player rolls doubles on a successful attack roll, the target is knocked back after any damage taken from the attack is applied.


That is when knock back is actually applied/determined/generated/whatever term you care to use. The reposition of the character comes later, sure, but that repositioning isn't the actual moment that knock back is determined. So you would check for Charge and other knock back ignoring powers after the doubles are rolled and before damage is actually dealt.

Further supporting that, from the PG:

Knock Back
 Powers and abilities that would prevent knock back are checked for before damage from the attack is applied.

It also says that the KB is applied after the damage is taken when a character that may not have the power that prevents the KB. The interpretation of rules you are presenting, while correct, is not very intuitive. It's confusing if a player is just going by the wording in the rules.

So you're saying the act of being knocked back isn't knock back?

The issue is that this is a basic rule in which the best wording is not in the rule book. Someone new to the game won't have access to the PG or at least may not know to look for it especially if the wording seems pretty clear as it stands (KB is applies after damage dealt, Charge is gone after clicking, character is knocked back). The game is complicated enough at first without having to tell someone "Oh by the way you're also going to need these other things to actually play." A tweak to the wording in the rule book would solve this pretty easily.

I hope that I am not coming off as disrespectful. A wise (if not fictional) man once said "You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." My pov after researching in the rule book was that Charge did not prevent kb if the power was not present of the dial. All I'm saying.

I told ya

Think of it this way, you check for knock back related powers and abilities prior to doing damage. You don't know how car to move them until after all damage is assigned (damage reducers and all).

So everything is checked at the beginning for knock back itself, you just can't determine how far to knock them back until the damage is dealt.

Not at all.

The act of being knocked back is indeed repositioning the character... but the whole cascade of events that leads up to that repositioning is started by rolling doubles. When those doubles are rolled, if the target ignores knock back then the chain of events never starts.

There are a lot of things that aren't in the rule book. Sadly, this is not a perfect world, and sometimes things must be subject to change and errata. This is where the PG comes into play.

Yeah, new players may not know about it... but that's what this forum is for, no?

IF you play at a venue a good judge would be keeping up with the PG to help with any questions that SHOULD be asked before any actions would be considered by a player. This knockback thing comes up often.

Our venue has a GREAT judge and he knew the correct ruling. Now while we as players respected his knowledge I had to know WHY this worked as it did when all of the wording in the rule book and the PAC did not back that up . I've never been one to blindly follow anything as such tendencies do not further my understanding.