So remy would you try and say that the hulk would have a 19 defense if he was based Logan. Even though logan is making a close combat attack? Hindering terrain only adds to a figs defense if it is for a range attack and only while that range attack is taking place so there is no way for spiderman to share that 19 defense.

No, I would not say that. I know that the Hindering does nothing against a Close-Combat attack.

In fact, I wouldn't even say he gets a 19 from Spidey if Bullseye was only targeting Hulk. Since Bullseye is targeting them both (and Spidey has to be part of the ranged-attack for this to work) =Spidey's defense value is actually increased +1 (per the rulebook.) He shares his defense value with Hulk (per the PAC) and the Hulk gets a +1 for the hindering (per the rulebook).

Again, if Bullseye had just chosen to shoot at Hulk, Hulks final defense would be 19.

Also, I recognize that this is not the way WizKids intended this; I'm just arguing it for arguing's sake.

Okay, here's the WHY you can't make hulk's defense a 20 against range: It says IN THE RULEBOOK that the hindering terrain modifier can only be added on once. In an essence, you're trying to add it on twice.
All defend can do is share the printed defense value. The Perplexing involves taking down someone's defense value (for example, taking down Spiderman's value to a 17). This would then give Hulk an 18 from range. Perplex works in this situation because by perplexes very desrciption, it alters any printed stat.
The only other modifier that works with defend is energy shield. Say hulk had it (why, I don't know. Maybe he beat up the Madarin and stole his. Wussy always walking around in a dress and going off about his pretty little rings). Then hulk's defense would be defended up to 18, toss on two more for ES, and then one more point for hindering terrain. That's 21.

And as EVERYONE ELSE on this thread will attest to, it's the way the rules of the game are. So stop posting replies that says it's not true, you're confusing the newbies.

Direct from the PAC...
DEFEND. This character can share his defense value with friendly figures in adjacent squares. (Optional) Any friendly figure in a square adjacent to this character may use this character’s defense value instead of its own.

Direct from the rule book...
If a line of fire between two figures on the ground passes through any square or squares containing hindering terrain, including the square that the target occupies, add 1 to the target’s defense value.

Thus,Spidey has a defense value of 19,gives it to Hulk,then Hulk recieves the Hindering Terrain bonus,making his defense 20.

I know I'm just a judge,not a rules moderator,but I have to say this is rather cut and dry when you read the wording.The FAQ simply doesn't have room for everything,and leaves a great deal up to Judges disscretion.I hope this helps.

Have Fun

dernjg...

Where do the rules say that "The only modifier that works with defend is energy sheild"?

Also, I already addressed the issue you brought forth about "hindering terrain modifier can only be added on once." Hulk is only using that modifier once. His defense, because of Defend, is 19. It's not 18 from Spiderman + 1 from hindering. It's 19 from Spiderman +1 from hindering.

Thanks superfreak.

I understand that this scenario is not the way WizKids intends it to be. I'm just pointing out that the rules make it this way, and I thought I would bring it to your attention.

Ahh, but that's not quite what it says in the rule book. The "only add once" is in regards to a LoF passing through more than one square of hindering terrain to a single target. It wasn't meant to cover this sort of situation.

Remy's come up with a rather unique situation which highlights a problem with the transitive property they've permitted Defend and like powers/abilities to have. The hindering modifier is not a bonus; it states in the rules that it increases the defense value. So as long as both figures are targeted in the same range attack, there's nothing in the rules to prevent receiving value for both hindering squares.

And as he's pointed out several times, that's NOT what WK intended to happen, but that's the situation they've left themselves open to. We're talking the theoretical here, that's all.

So then by your reasoning if it was the defenders hulk than spidey would have a 20 also?

No, because E Hulk's defense only goes up to 17 at best. Add in the hindering, that's just an 18, and there's no reason to share that with Spider-man.

no because the E hulk would get spidey's 19 +1 one for the hinering to 20 and since spidey can mimic the defenders ability he would be able to get the 20 back from the hulk.

You should really take the time to read the EXACT wording in the PAC and rule book.It says nothing of printed Values and Defend.Perplex may raise or lower ANY value,though the fact that You may only use it on your turn and the effect ends on the same turn makes raising a defense value pointless.No where does it say the only power to work with Defend is ESD. And just so you see it again,let Me explain This situation again.Both Spidey and Hulk are in HT.Spidey has 18 Defense w/Defend.Add to that the HT Modifier and he has a defense of 19.He then shares said 19 defense with Hulk.Hulks defense is now 19.Add to that the HT Modifier to get a 20 defense.Keep in mind this only works with Ranged attacks.If somehow Hulk had ESD,he would have 19 def from Spidey, plus 1 from HT,plus 2 from ESD for a total 22 defense.
Other than that,I would suggest not jumping to conclusions over something like this."Newbies" learn more from experiance than anything,but hypotheticals such as this when discussed rationally help everyone when examined,Dern.

Remy,

Spiderman's defense would only be 18 because:

From the rule book
If a line of fire between two figures on the ground passes through any square or squares containing hindering terrain, including the square that the TARGET occupies, add 1 to the TARGET'S defense value.

The Hulk is the TARGET, NOT Spiderman. Since Bullseye is shooting at the Hulk, only the Hulk gets the benefit of the hindering terrain.

Spiderman would share his defense of 18, the Hulk would get the hindering terrain bonus.

Case closed.

MY GOD!!!!!MY HEAD IS ON FIRE!!!SOMEONE STOP THE DEFEND SUPERCYCLE!!!!!!!

Yes I think this is true(Paging Dr Gandalf)I hate to say it,but this could bring new broken-ness to "turtling"teams.

Sheesh, is anybody reading Remy's post?

Both Hulk AND Spider-man are targets. That's the crux, and as he's already pointed out, the only way this particular situation works.

(and melon_head, you're correct... I think. But does it even end there? If both are targetted, does the circle ever stop? Is there any reason Spider-man can't share his Hulk/Defender inflated defense back to Hulk?)

Read the first post in it's entirity.He is targeting BOTH Spidey and Hulk.

Case Reopened.

If melonhead is right, then wouldn't the +1 be added to Spidey as well. Thus making him a 21 now, and then back to the Hulk for a 22, and then back to spidey for 23. Wouldn't this keep going to an infinite DV? I don't think that's right at all because defenders allows the piece to USE the defense value, not change their DV to that.

What I'm really confused about here is why Spidey would get the +1 at all. He isn't the target of the attack. Why would LOF be drawn to him at all? The target is the hulk.