Sorry....didn't mean to imply that you were making the ruling. I was just saying, in response to your post. Sorry for the confusion.

So how about this.......

Critical hits and misses.......

Since incap is all of a sudden a damage dealing attack (when hitting someone with 2 action tokens) does a critical hit deal 2 damage???

Under the section that deals with crit hits and misses, attacks that deal no damage do not critically hit or miss. Has this been ruled on as well? Its a situation that can't work one way and not the other....

There's nothing in the rulebook stating that a figure with two action tokens takes 1 damage if it somehow would be assigned an action token.

Incap itself says it deals damage when the target already has two action tokens.

The answer to "why does incap trigger mystics when the target already has two tokens?" is not "because it was ruled to."

The answer is "because Incap says it deals damage under that circumstance."

No. The damage is clearly from Incap. The reason for the "this attack does no damage" is because otherwise it would deal damage normally. They should word it better, but it's still pretty clear that the damage is coming from Incapacitate which is an attack.

Compare it to other figures that can give tokens and will NOT cause damage when trying to put a token on a figure with 2.

A critical miss using Incap will deal the attacker zero damage.

Even if targeting a figure with 2 tokens.

It is considered an attack that deals zero damage until it hits.

Then you either place a token on the target or deal it one penetrating damage if it has two tokens.

If the target has Mystics, the 1 penetrating will trigger it.

Where are you getting this "until it hits" condition? That is not printed anywhere?

Incapacitate:
Give this character a close combat or ranged combat action to make an attack that deals no damage. If the attack hits, give the target an action token; if the target already has 2 action tokens, deal the target 1 penetrating damage.

Are you funnin' me, boy?
Everyone's trying to help you. Please read the powers.

sorry, totally off topic, but rep for the reference. lol. Ron Pearlman is awesome

I'm getting popcorn....


You could have everyone on the realms chime in, but until it clicks for him, he's never gonna get it. The real question is whether he will own up to it once he does.

No, incap is an attack that deals no damage. So it never crit hits or crit misses.


But seriously, it's a NO damage dealing attack that deals damage. Yes, it's weird, Energy Explosion used to do the same thing. It's unfortunate that it's weird, but it is what it is.

Hahahaha.....yeah, now it all makes sense.

Heroclix.....the game of inconsistencies, poor language and corner cases.

Just in case my op wasn't clear, I acknowledge the ruling for what it is and play by it. My purpose with this thread was in the hopes that someone could explain to me with rules.....rather then the old ......"it is when it is and it isn't when it isn't because I said so," way.

Crit misses automatically miss.....but if a no damage attack cannot crit miss, then it is possible to hit a target by rolling double ones. (12 av + hammer + perplex hits a 17 on a roll of double ones) At which point a no damage attack becomes a damage dealing attack in incapacitate, now we've triggered a crit miss......which we couldn't have done previously with a no damage attack. This is inconsistent. The ruling needs to change. Same thing with the crit hit side. Can't roll a crit hit until you deal damage from an attack. If you incap a target with 2 tokens you are saying you then deal them 2 damage? It is now a damage dealing attack ......so crit hit must be applicable...... how is this not so??

Please explain how it becomems a damage dealing attack to activate Mystics feedback, but it does NOT become a damage dealing attack in order to activate crit hits/misses.

This will take a bit, so please bear with me.

You are looking at two separate things and treating them as the same when they are not.

Let's lay down the groundwork.

NO DAMAGE
An attack that deals no damage ignores modifiers to the damage value. Attacks that deal no damage deal neither critical hit damage to the target nor critical miss damage to the attacker (see Rolling 2 and 12: Critical Misses and Critical Hits, below).

INCAPACITATE
Give this character a close combat or ranged combat action to make an attack that deals no damage. If the attack hits, give the target an action token; if the target already has 2 action tokens, deal the target 1 penetrating damage.

First line of Incap:
Give this character a close combat or ranged combat action to make an attack that deals no damage
Incapacitate lets you make an attack that deals no damage. Attacks that deal no damage deal neither critical hit damage to the target nor critical miss damage to the attacker. When rolling to hit for Incapacitate, the rules clearly state Critical Hits will not deal the extra damage, nor will a Crit Miss damage the attacker.

Good so far. Now, the second line.
If the attack hits, give the target an action token; if the target already has 2 action tokens, deal the target 1 penetrating damage.


a) I Critical Hit you, you have Mystics TA. Do you have two tokens? No? Take a token. Take no extra damage from the Crit, because Incapacitate is an Attack that deals No Damage.
The attack deals no damage, so Mystics does not deal "feedback" damage.

b) I Crit Hit you, you have Mystics TA. Do you have two tokens? Yes? You take one Penetrating Damage. This damage is not increased by the Crit because Incapacitate is an attack that deals No Damage. How can an attack that deals No Damage deal damage? Because the two lines in Incap say so.
The attack that deals No Damage deals one damage. The term "deal" is specifically used, so we know that:
1) Incapacitate is an attack
2) If the target has two tokens, you deal damage.
Those are the prerequisites for activating Mystics damage. They are met. It hurts. Next time I'll Pulse Wave them.


I understand that this may not be the most intuitive thing going in the game, but you can't say it's not clear. It's two lines that say exactly what you do.

INCAPACITATE
Give this character a close combat or ranged combat action to make an attack that deals no damage. If the attack hits, give the target an action token; if the target already has 2 action tokens, deal the target 1 penetrating damage.

It is an attack that deals No Damage, but has the possibility of an effect that can deal damage. If you can't accept that, then I cannot help.

Knock Back damage is damage from Knock Back, not damage from an Attack.

KNOCK BACK
When a player rolls doubles on a successful attack roll, the target is knocked back after any damage taken from the attack is applied...

Knock Back Damage
This damage dealt is called knock back damage. It can be reduced as normal and is applied separately and after damage dealt by the attacker.

...is this just an exercise in epic trolling?


Or do you just refuse to read the last line of Incapacitate?

(Technically, I suppose it could be both things.)


The last line on Incapacitate establishes a condition in which a successful attack with Incap does damage. That damage is coming from the attack (as opposed to pushing damage or knock back damage) so it meets all the requirements to trigger Mystics.

This seems pretty clear to me and not typical WK obnubilation.

Yeah, he's been "that guy" this whole time.

Language is a huge part of this game and not everyone can comprehend it... and sometimes they refuse to even try.