TK isn't a problem, it never has been. There's no way to get around it costing an action to use, therefore powers that should've been more important before suddenly are (Leadership being the most recognizeable).

Everybody thinks Jean Grey and Mandroids will be on every team?, where's the problem? I don't think my Magneto's and Quasar's will have much trouble destroying them. They're certainly easier to hit than Wasp!

Not to mention it's a one-time thing, generally. Once the fig is out there, it's not coming back too soon (unless you use a taxi!).

In fact, perhaps they purposely left it in so that there would still be some (now limeted) speed-play options.

I have already been thinking of new slingshot opportunities-- but they cost a ton of actions and a fair number of points, and aren't that big a wallop.

Ignatz Mouse wrote:
>>I dunno-- I just don't see it being anywhere as omnipresent as the taxi abuse.>>

Taxi use wasn't abuse--it was simply a mandatory part of basic strategy. Like using a Queen in chess. You had tohave taxis.

>> Certainly not as manditory.>>

If you want to make a first strike, it will be. Without TK, the only way to move and attack in one turn is to have Charge, Running Shot, or HSS. The first 2 are very limited (you only move, like, 4 or 5 squares before you attack) or on a very small number of expensive figures.

Having a TK unit is cheap and gives you the potential of moving 10 squares and attacking in one turn. How will this *not* be the basis of every good team?

>>I may be wrong-- we'll see.>>

As might I. But then, I have already restructured all of the working teams I had around Telekenisis. As I can't see any reason not to.

-Peter

I actually disagree on the intent of the change. Removing taxi's move-and-attack was a part of the rewrite, but I don't think of it as being the ultimate aim. The yo-yo idea, first turn strikes, the ability to assault without risk. I think there were a number of changes, possibly heavy-handed, designed to limit that. With TK, there is certainly risk, as you are left in the open after being TKed, often without any support. That's why the toned-down nature of TK vs. taxiing is relevant to why it was left in.

silverbelt wrote:
>>TK isn't a problem, it never has been.>>

It isn't a problem. It just is absurd that they rebuilt the whole game to remove a particular style of play, yet left Telekenisis in, which allows for a very similar style of play.

-Peter

Again, some of this is speculation:

Without taxies, those expensive figures don't cost quite so much.

First strike is a lot less important. In the few games I have played, it was not the game maker/breaker.

And I considered the way taxies were used abuse. It's a loaded word-- but when the atttacking figures never move on their own, and are only carried around, it seems like a particular rule feature taken to an extreme-- and I saw that a lot. I don't buy the Chess analogy becuase the game doesn't seem to have been designed with manditory taxies in mind, and with NAAT a lot of formerly lame powers and figs seem more balanced. I suppose there's a defense for such taxi use, only in that you had to do it because everyone else did. Doesn't make me like it.

Anyway, your TK teams are going to be down anywhere from 30-90 points from mine in a 300 pt game, and they don't buy you nearly as much. You can bet I'll put those points to use. I look forward to people trying to emulate the old style of playing. <rubs claws together> Let the games begin!

Doublel-post madness!

TK _can_ be Outwitted though. Flying -- taxing cannot. There is a difference.

Herocomplex wrote:
>>With TK, there is certainly risk, as you are left in the open after being TKed, often without any support.>>

Just as if you moved on your own, but you get to attack as well. There is no risk that Telekenisis opens you to that simply moving on your own into position doesn't as well. But it also allows you to move and attack in the same turn. Which, again, seems to be something that the new rules specifically were designed to avoid.

>>That's why the toned-down nature of TK vs. taxiing is relevant to why it was left in.>>

Possibly. Yet still, Telekenisis now provides for a unique, super powerful ability--the ability to move up to 10 sqaures and attack in the same turn. Which makes Telekenisis an incredibly powerful ability. And will be incredibly common.

-Peter

Oh, and Bakija, thanks for a reasonable debate on the new rules and effects. A welcome change from what a lot of the board looks like today.

bwanabwana wrote:
>>TK _can_ be Outwitted though. Flying -- taxing cannot. There is a difference.>>

Yes. Telekenisis is strictly *worse* than Old Rules taxiing. But Old Rules taxiing is no longer an issue. What is an issue is the fact that the only way in the game to move 10 squares and attack in the same turn (which is a very significant ability) is Telekenisis.

And the ability to make a significant 1st strike in the game is huge.

Ok. Hypothetically speaking, if I have a Telekenisis unit next to, say, E Hercules with a heavy object, you can't afford to move within 10 squares of the TK unit. If you do, you will suddenly find yourself under assault of 6 damage with an 11 attack. Before you get to shoot anyone. Perhaps you could use Running Shot to hit the TK unit first, but if, say, the TK unit is Jean Grey in hindering terrain, she'll have a 19 defense. And you'll need to do 3+ clicks of damage to nullify the TK ability--units with RS doing 3+ damage are few and far between.

So the game becomes a war of Telekenisis units, rather than taxis. Not a huge problem, but just as predictable as under the old rules, with Taxiing replaced with Telekenisising.

-Peter

All of this really boils down to 2 things in my mind:

1) Are we talking about winning tournaments? If so, dammit...sucks, etc. yadda yadda.

2) if you play a TK in every game because you're afraid your opponent, the USSR, er, sorry, your opponent is going to bring a TK'er, then it's...the Cold War. Not a fun game. People who obsess about this issue play the game to obsessively win. If people would just learn to spice up their teams and play for fun, argh...why am I bothering to type this? [because I want to have fun with the game, not be worried about a game].

I almost always have an Outwit figure. So that one is easy-- I taxi him into the 10-square range and outwit TK. Or move him on his own. Many of these guys have stealth, so I put him in hindering. Your Herc/Jean Grey combo is now semi-useless and a lot of points. Now, if this is Batman or Nightwing or Green Arrow, next turn they (or friends) get Incapacitated as a bonus. Dependign on what esle you have available, I have also moved in some characters with high Def values and range. I'll need to push them to attack next time, but that will be worth it.

Waiting for me to come to you is going to get you hurt.

I really don't think that these rules will last to Indy's opening. The negative backlash will hopefully change Wizkids' mind.

I think the assumption that the taxi rules were changed because taxiing was too powerful of an ability maybe flawed. I think the change may have been made because taxiing became too integral to game play and character usage. I know it seems like almost the same issue (as it became so integral because it was so powerful) but I think its an important distinction.

Had taxiing been used simply to carry figures to a fight, allowing them first strike and then the taxi simply abandoned the cargo there to duke it out, I don't think we would be seeing this change. That seems to be evidenced by the TK remaining unchanged. I think it may have been the fact that so many teams were played as paired figures, taxies never left the side of their cargo and rarely took actions other than to relocate the cargo. I think it led to alot higher percentage of movement actions than the designers expected (never mind the fact that alot of them were free move actions).

TK is a different case, typically each piece will only get the benefit of the TK once per game. Its no longer the case where two pieces are almost treated as one in some player's minds. TK enforces the separation of the pieces by its nature. It has the one-way trip thing built in. Sure its possible to retrieve the piece using a combination of TK and taxies on a following turn (or actions permitting on the same turn) but it can't done quickly using only the same two pieces (unless the piece TKed out has a high movement and can simply push to run back to its previous position).

TK gets people to the fight effectively. It lets them engage early, which is what everyone (nearly anyway)liked about taxiing. But without a significant investment in points and actions, its pretty much a one time bonus (exception HSS). It doesn't provide for the constant repositioning which I think the designers felt the problem with taxiing developed.