There's actually a HUGE difference between the Sacred Phoenix effect and Goldd's effect that makes the ruling make sense.

You can chain Bottomless Trap Hole and Torrential Tribute to the Sacred Phoenix summon because it's other effect doesn't kick in until it has been properly Special Summoned.

Goldd however does not fall into this category because both of his effects activate at the same time. His second effect has nothing to do with him being properly Special Summoned.

It's all their in the card texts.

Wow, not even Solemn Judgement can stop them? ouch! But if the special summon never happends (ie negated), wouldn't that stop the second trigger affect as well?

Sorry for beating a dead horse. These cards have some pretty unique/weird rulings.

all i can say den frenzy, is that your wrong.

notice the bolded rulings.

goldd (and sillva) must be successfully special summoned in order for their other effects to activate. if the special summon is prevented by scapegoat etc. the other effect doesn't even activate.

you can negate the special summon of goldd/sillva with royal oppression, so there's no reason you can't negate the summon with solemn judgement/horn of heaven

also, because you can chain to their second effect, that clearly shows that they do not trigger at the same time as the special summon effect, they they activate on a separate chain after the summon is successful. and because you can chain to it, you should be able to chain BTH/TT as well. you see they're more like sacred phoenix than you thought.

and as for card of return, it should work as well, it should trigger at the same time as goldd/sillva's second effect, and the rules of SEGOC should cause a chain. if sillva is involved it SHOULD be put with sillva as step 1 and card of safe return as step 2 (because silva is mandatory and card of safe return is optional). however because goldd's second effect is optional as well, it should go the the controller as to which is step 1 and which is step 2.

i've said it before, and i'll say it again, these rulings just don't make sense.

twiget, i believe your mistaken, look at the royal oppression ruling.

i believe that you would activate solemn judgement after the special summon, but before the second effect activates. (similar to if you solemn judgemented breaker, you'd activate SJ before breaker's counter placing effect even activated)

SJ would prevent the special summon from being successful, and the second effect wouldn't even activate.

I may be partially incorrect in how I am wording the ruling, but none-the-less I understand how and why it has been ruled this way.

There really isn't too much to debate here. That's the way the effects work. Clearly I am not clearing it up enough for you, so maybe the way someone else explains it will help. It's a timing issue, plain and simple. You miss the timing when Goldd and Sillva's second effects go off. If they can't go off for some reason, they you will be able to activate these trigger Traps.

I'm just going off of what I have seen on the Judge List and the UDE FAQs, which is the best anyone can do.

exactly what i've been saying, timing. and the truth is, the timing is absolutely correct.

i play pot of greed, and you chain call of the haunted, call resolves first and then pot of greed. afterwards, i can respond to the previous chain with BTH, even though the special summon wasn't the last thing to resolve. BTH/TT simply have to be in the "response chain" (and if you don't belive me, then how can you activate BTH after a flip summoned cyber jar finishes resolving)

you summon breaker, and assuming that i don't negate his summon, his spell counter effect triggers. i can chain BTH/TT to his effect, because its still the "response chain" that immediatly folloed his summon.

the fact remains, that cards like BTH/TT can be activated at any time within the the chain that immediatly follows their trigger. unless 1 of the 3 following things are true:

1) its the damage step
2) a speed 3 effect is on the chain(preventing speed 2 effects from being used)
3) both players passed their right to respond, in which case there is no "response chain" (but keep in mind, that if 1 or more trigger effects start a chain, that is considered to be the "response chain")

if you or anybody else can explain to me how any of those are true, or give me an example of another scenario where you cannot respond then i will conceid.
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i do realize that at the moment, the rulings are official and i will abide by them. but that doesn't mean i have to agree with them.

The reason you can Bottomless Trap Hole a monster Special Summoned by Cyber Jar is because the last thing to happen is the Special Summoning. Also, you can't Bottomless Trap Hole the Call of the Haunted-ed monster if CotH is chained to Pot of Greed. The last thing to happen is the controller of Pot of Greed drew 2 cards, so the response timing for BTH is gone. Also, Goldd/Sillva cannot be negated via Horn of Heaven or Solemn Judgment because the timing is once again gone. The effect of summoning them and of using their secondary effects are all in 1 chain link, that occurs in the graveyard. So HoH/SJ can't touch them.

You wanted an example of when you can't respond: Pot of Greed is played, Call of the Haunted is chained....sound familiar? :P

-chaosruler LVL 2 YGO Rulings judge

ok, well first of all i'd like to say that my argument about SJ/HoH is the one that i'm least sure of.

also i admit i was wrong about the call of the haunted example of mine.

but consider this ruling on goldd again:

to me that says that they do not go in the same chain link. to me that says that first goldd special summons himself, and then his second effect activates. which to me sounds surprisingly like the sacred phoenix.

EDIT:
ha ha ha. i guess that example wouldn't be activating BTH in a chain immediatly following the trigger.

That actually tells you that they do indeed stay inside 1 chain link. If they were on 2 different chain links, then they would be independent of each other, and would not rely on getting summoned to go off, like SPoN.

-chaosruler

well, your reference to SPoN in that post is quite vague, are you saying that SPoN's effect of destroying all spell/traps is independant of its special summon effect? because that would be entirely false.

also, as for the effects of goldd/sillva being dependant on eachother, then look at sillva. sillva's second effect is not optional, it is mandatory. but if the opponent has less than 2 card in hand, then that effect does not acitvate, yet sillva is still special summoned. also, goldd's second effect is optional, and if you decide not to destroy anything/there's nothing to destroy, goldd is still destroyed.

therefore sillva's/goldd's second effects are dependant on the first, but the first is not dependant on the second. which again seems quite similar to SPoN.......hmmm, maybe effects being dependant on eachother doesn't mean they are on the same chain link.

I agree with chaosruler6.

phiefer3: If it's the "Royal Oppression" ruling getting you mixed up, let me try and explain.

DB2-EN200 - Royal Oppression
[Trap/Continuous]

Pay 800 Life Points to negate a Special Summon of a monster and the effect of a card that Special Summons a monster and destroy it. Both you and your opponent can use this effect as long as this card remains face-up on the field.

The reason you can use "Royal Oppression" on Goldd/Silva is because it also negates the effect of a card that special summons a monster. For example, "Royal Oppression" can be used on cards such as "Call of the Haunted", "Premature Burial", etc.

I hope this helps.. :)

Leaf_Dave......... you took the words out of my mouth :p, this seems as a huge debate, and I totally understand where you are coming from phiefer, now this might not (in fact I really don't think that it will clarify anything), but it might help out a little bit anyways, well its pretty much my point of view anyways.......... with respect on the Sillva's effect point you got there.......

It seems to me that Sillvas effect seems to me is more than effect but more of a condition, as it demands a certain aspect of the situation for your opponent to need to have 2 cards in hand, now this is not relevant in any way with the current situation, but given this I might guess that as the first thing for Goldd or Sillva's effect is for them to check for the current condition of the game to see if their effect can in fact resolve, and by this time, timing of another card has already passed........

Now this might not be accurate, nor have I found it anywhere, but I tried and visualize this guys effect as I had the same conflict a while back, and this seemed a bit right for me to understand a little bit of their effect..........