Maybe you were in too much of a rush to read what I said. I was asking how else can Treasure Map be worded to say that it can only be activated when an effect returns it to hand, just like cards like Dark Coffin can only be activated if destroyed and sent to the Graveyard face-down (Dark Coffin leaves no room for question)?

If you rephrase it the wrong way, it becomes a card that must be targeted instead of only needing to be returned by effects like Giant Trunade or Byser Shock.

While the effect reads like a Counter Trap, it isnt one, and should act more like Torrential Tribute and Bottomless Trap Hole.

Like I said, it can go either way, and should have a definite ruling passed down from UDE.

Yeah...the text says one thing, but logic and other similar things say something else...x_x;;

this really doesn't need a direct ruling, as i pointed out it is the same as effects like dark paladin and royal oppression. its a speed to effect that must be used in response to the activation of an effect, and from those precedents it must be chained directly to the card.

cards like TT are not good comparisons because those are for responding to a non-chainable event.

also the concept of counter traps having to be directly is easily distributed to other response cards. if you look at negate attack (which i also pointed out earlier) unlike most counter traps it does not have to be activated directly after the attack, why? because you can't chain to an attack and therefore it works like TT and can be used anywhere within the chain. it works the other way around as well, if any effect needs to be used in response to a chainable effect then it must be chained directly to the effect.

So what you're saying is, Byser Shock and Mobius the Frost Monarch cannot be responded to by Torrential Tribute because they are "Chainable Events"?

Doesnt make any sense.

Well...since summoning isn't chainable and all...(while in cases like Byser Shock and such, it's chaining to effect activation, but still responding to a summon too)...oh I dunno...x_x;;

I believe phiefer said "non-chainable events".

And by saying that, it must mean you can't "chain" Torrential Tribute to Byser Shock's effect, which IS a chainable event, as well as, a SUMMON.

Well the difference here is obvious - "Torrential Tribute" can be activated when the last thing that has resolved is a summon. In the case of "Byser Shock", the reason you can chain "Torrential Tribute" is that the summon is still the last thing to have resolved.

As for "Treasure Map" - it has the same text/rulings as, say, "Trap Jammer", a Counter Trap. It has the same text as many of the Counter Traps, so there's no reason it wouldn't work the same way.

Just like "Torrential Tribute" can only be used when the last thing to have resolved is a summon, "Treasure Map" and other specific-response cards like Counter Traps can only be activated directly in response to the card in question.

Well, im not really sure what phiefer ment by it, I was just pointing out the correction.

Treasure Map isnt a Counter Trap, and very well could be, if they wanted it to, but it isnt.

If you want to say that it can only respond directly to the effect, then that is fine, but leave the Counter Trap argument out of it because cards like A-Team: Trap Disposal Unit are not Counter Traps, but have the same timing.

I'm simply comparing it to Counter Traps because that is the easiest thing to compare it to when it says "This card can only be activated in response to the activation of an effect..." If you chained it to a card other than the "Giant Trunade", it would no longer be in response to the 'return to the hand' effect, but another effect.

Well, with "Shadow of Eyes" and "D.D. Trap Hole", you illustrated the difference between responses to Spell/Trap Cards and to monster Summons/Sets. "Shadow of Eyes"/"D.D. Trap Hole"can be activated any time in the chain in response to the Set, like "Torrential Tribute" for Summons, whereas the other cards like "Big Burn" must be activated in the next Chain Link.

masterwoo0, summoning byser shock or mobius is not a chainable event.

a summon is never a chainable event. ever.

the only chainable events are the activation of EFFECTS. that is it, those are the only things you can chain to.

so, TT responds to a summon, is a summon a chainable event? no. so it can be used anywhere within the chain.

things like dark paladin respond to the activation of a spell card, is the activation of a spell card? yes. so it must be chained directly to it.

so the basic rule is that any effect that must be used in response to something (whether its a counter trap or not) must be chained directly to what it responds to.

but if what you are responding to is not a chainable event (an effect's activation) then you can use the card anywhere within the chain.

it isn't just true for counter traps, its for anything that responds. which explains why dark paladin must chain directly to the spell card, and why negate attack can be used anywhere withing the chain.

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it doesn't matter if TT is being chained to an effect it is still responding to a nonchainable event.