Just trying to keep things focused. If you want to discuss solutions to the problems, feel free to start a thread on those solutions. Try to make it wide in scope (something like "discussion of solutions to tank drop") rather than specific ("my solutions to charge") so that we don't have a billion threads cutting out all other discussion.

That should be cut off. and the a$$ets frozen!

I think your list is bang on, but I would add one other problem:

Mech Capture
-requires no special equipment beside speed mode: foot.
-can target Mechs that are not shut down and not in salvage
-can use IT to assist the attempt
-can "critically hit" to succeed
-captor can freely break and rebase
-worth double the points of destroying the Mech

@ DBlizzard...

Thing is, tankdrop hasnt made tanks any more playable. We've got two units used, the DF Schmitt and Go Cho Whatshisname. In exchange for seeing both of these units, all mechs that charge less than 20" are rendered obsolete. How many is that, precisely? 60? 70 different units that are utterly unplayable, at least partly because of tankdrop? Sure, heavy tanks with high minimum ranges have serious issues, but I really dont think anyone is happy trading 2 DF tanks for 60 mechs. There is also the fact that not every heavy tank has a 3"+ minimum range. 2" minimum ranges can be compensated for by escorting the unit with an infantry to cover the blindspots. Sure, formations of conventional vehicles and infantry make for excellent artillery victims... but is that more to do with the vehicles/infantry or with the artillery? Without tankdrop, tanks fill their original role... light mech prices in exchange for heavy mech firepower, but at the cost of mobility. Transports let them get around the mobility restriction, hence distorting their point value. If nothing else, tankdrop severely damages the ability of players to suspend disbelief. I remember teaching a friend how to play and _immediately_ upon reading how 3-cap transports go about move/unload/shooting, he started asking a series of questions. A series of questions that ended with his sputtering a profane tirade involving "shrink ray", "lame as ####", "why play a mech?", "total ####", etc etc. This from a player who had been playing less than a week.

True. But there could be better ways to make those vehicles useful.

EXCELLENT thread Warflail. I couldn't have put it better myself.

I would add 2 items to the list.

1. Effects of units basing one another. How exactly is a 4 point non-military trained and non-equipped Peasant going to prevent a 100 ton Atlas from going where it wants to go .. or stop it from shooting? Same thing vs. vehicles. I don't think that Peasant is going to do much vs a Behemoth main battle tank. This merits being looked at closely. Vehicles and mechs shouldn't really be effected in any sense by infantry basing them.

2. Captures. "Oh look I jumped The Scorchers up in to the rear arc of your Atlas along with two Clan Battle Armor buddies. Let's see 9 attack + 4 for the helpers +2 for the arc equals 15 vs your 26. Can I hit an 11? Yup. Your army is now mine. Thanks for playing." I don't do well at hitting 14's or 15's but I hit rolls of 11 or so ALL the time. The fact that WK in their infinite wisdom has made several mini-mechs in the form of Hazen's Strikers, Shadow Stalkers, and especially The Scorchers ... makes the capture-mongers. To make matters worse you can even use IT for the attempt if you got it. Even the same lowly Peasant in the previous example has a chance at crawling up a moving 100 ton 30 foot high machine ... with no equipment or training mind you ... and capture it. I took Yuri in the Republic scenario a while back where the defense of the ROT units was increased and my Yuri essentially had a 28 defense vs capture attempts. Let that sink in a minute. 28. It was captured with no problem. If a mech with a 28 defense can be captured with little difficulty this would lead me to believe that captures are WAY to easy in the game and should be examined closely.

I've had the following raised with me over the last several months:

Combine two of the above and you get:

--mega damage artilery drops--

You try to lower the amount of damage done to your advanceing force by softening up the artillery OR you make any kind of offensive move towards my towed pieces/transports . . .

Despite the fact that my swordsworn towed AA or SH toweds are in fact towed, I've brought along 2 or 3 transports to make the towed's immune to counterbattery fire or being damaged at all really unless you kill the transports. If you go after the transports i can simply hit you with heavy hitting low cost vtols which are of course standard fare for this sort of army.

So you are threatening my forces . . . Oh no problem I simply suck the piece up, then push to spit it out the next round with no tokens to apply megga damage from a different location to your units which are now either tokened or pushed . . . game over . . .

Really not tactical, It's simply who lands arty first. Also all but fast evade or agility mechs under 165 points are unplayable.

which leads right in to the overall picture of all of this . . .

The "i don't ever lose army" will always consist soley of whatever pieces can not be hit in any reasonable manner in combinations which use rules loopholes to make powerful crushing plays which while they have little to no bearing in reality, work in the game.

This matches the video game term "powergaming" which is defined as exploiting the mechanics of the game engine in a way that the designers did not anticipate, or understand the full scope of, to win solely for the sake of winning.

A few more powergamer tricks that only work in game logic . . .

The VTOL fly in to range, being immune 100% of the time, fire a shot, then move out of range . . .

OR,

the VTOL speed points to pop up shoot then drop, again imune to return fire 100% of the time

This exploits the turned based system to ensure that units can not be shot at . . . while the pop and shoot is a real tactic, a unit which does this may be shot at even if they do . . . the powergamer exploits the fact that while in reality if I know you are there i might be able to hit you during the window of being up, or in range, in game terms i am "frozen" so they can constantly move in and shoot whithout ever worring about pesky return fire . . . I bet our military would LOVE to have that ability :D

Then there are the "I can't crit miss on a vtol attack because i am makeing a move order not a range combat attack" camp

While in reality all weapons may malfunction, here the letter of the game rules, and more generally, language that is confusing due to expansions is exploited to deny an attack the chance of ever malfuctioning in a critical way. While a rules exploitation there is a strong case to be made within the rules for this.

Perhaps while these and other powergaming loopholes can be closed, We will always see new ones, as the philosophy behind this type of gameing always remains and can not be changed easily.

'mechs are currently point-inefficent for their costs.

We have vehicles in the game that can do more damage, have farther range, and are less vulnerable than 'mechs 3 times their cost. Sure, they can't push, but you can bring multiples. Why even bother bringing 'mechs?

Let's face it, the ability to push continuously is no longer a selling point for 'mechs. They need something more.

Everyone else has pretty much mentioned most of my other points.

This is one of the problems in the first place. Name a tank that exsists that, when based by opposing infantry, it can do nothing. Tanks have Machine guns for a reason, and it is not to be festive. One of the problems is that a 13 point Hoverbike, Trike, or Minigun can tie up almost any tank for the entire game because of minimums. Yes, I know that there are many tanks out now with 0" minimums, but should I just forget about all of the M1 Marksmans, Behemoths, DI Schmitts, and JES IIs I have because there are "better" tanks out now? Logically, a tank Should be able to shoot at infantry and vehicles inside the minimum.

I think any problems that take mechs out of focus are major problems. This is MechWarrior. I believe wizkids has things in the works to change this though. I will hold out for that day.

Faith is a wonderful thing bshugg. I, on the otherhand, am much more pragmatic. We have had three expansions already and it has just been more and more downhill slide for 'Mechs (except for the widely accepted as broken ones, like Arnis).

Then comes Counterassualt and what do they add for 'Mechs? New bloody MELEE rules! By Kerensky, does nobody shoot guns anymore in WK's vision of the future?

I will believe WK has things to fix it when I am playing them and not a second before.

I guess one of the issues I'd have with the game right now is the fact that 'Mechs that are dangerous attackers are automatically as competent in melee.

Why is it that a large number of PPCs allows me to hit harder with my fists?

'Mechs with no melee attack symbol should not be able to do as much damage in hand-to-hand combat. Kind of like how ranged attackers are treated in MK 2.0, from what I hear.

This post is meant to help Wizkids identify problems and make the game better and more profitable.

Overall Problem: WizKids needs more new MWDA players to sell more product.

Specific Problem: New players are being discouraged from playing the game by rules they see as "goofy", "dumb" or (more intelligently described) "counterintuitive".

Example of Problem: At my venue where I am BM we have a regular attendance of 8 per event. In the last 6 months we have had 2 new players come and stay. TWO!!? That's it!! Yep, TWO! Yes I make flyers, yes I hand them out, yes I run demos, yes I'm enthusiastic. Yes I try to get my friends to play. Yes we are nice guys and laugh and have a good time. We're a fun venue. Still only 2. Not good. Game not growing.

------------------

This is what new people say about the game:

Goofy Rules Problem #1:
New Player says, "Wait Battlemaster, you mean this mech can charge me from 24" away and I can see it coming and I can't even shoot at it while it runs at me first? My mech is like a deer in the headlights. Why can a mech charge me farther than I can shoot?" "Uh...well..." I reply. "That's dumb," says new player. I never see player again.

Goofy Rules Problem #2: New Player says, "Wait Battlemaster, you mean my mech that is worth 200+ points cannot fire at this tank here because this little peasants are touching me?" "Uh....yeah..." "That's dumb," says new player. I never see player again.

Goofy Rules Problem #3: New Player says, "Hey Battlemaster, why is my opponent have an army of only VTOLs, artillery, infantry, and no mechs?" "Wait and see," I say. <15 minutes and the battle is over> "That's why." "Oh." I never see player again.

Hope my "from the trenches" report helps!

i think that on the note of artillery, most of the super cheap artillery units that do extreme damage (SH DI towed, SS towed AA) lose stats EXTREMELY quickly, so you can counter it with a relatively accurate pair of snipers. infact, when snipers are damaged, they become MORE accurate, and the meager damage is enough due to lack of armour on the enemy artillery, as well as poor staying power.

tuna- I should not have to always bring a Merc Sniper in my armies because it is one of the few tools that effectively incapacitates Toweds. Oh, and you can get 3 SS DI Towed to my 2 Merc snipers. That means that my Snipers are screwed. 5 damage and 4 damage is much more than a Sniper can soak up and still do it's job. Even if I got off the first hit, that would still be a Towed that is untouched and 2 toweds that keep marginal utility. No good.

Um... what's with the word "vehicles" having a link imposed on it leading to a Used Car dealer?