i think it kinda balance

like paper rock scisor game

arnis beat artie , artie beat infantry swarm, infantry swarm beat arnis.

tank drop beat vtol *maybe*, vtol beat arnis *df donar*, arnis beat tank drop .

so about ballance

we shall not destroy the ballance

if you want to weaken something up weaken also it counter part :)

so the circle of ballace are maintane :)

*pardon my grammar so sleepy can't type right*

I myself have only won one out of about four games with Arnis. I am the sort of commander that does not like to charge unless I feel I absolutely have to, and I don't usually build armies with charge as the primary focus. I really see Arnis as being about right for his points power wise, and if your proposed rules fly people may start to field more high defense units which will discourage chargehappiness to some extent.

The problem I believe, is how easy it is to charge with any mech in comparison to how difficult it is to give your mech shot opportunities, or effectivly use mixed formations with mechs. The game might need just the smallest tweek to the charge rules; A subtle change like giving the target of the charge +1 to thier defense, or making charges do only primary damage(instead of getting extra damage) could go a long way to discourage people from charging so often.

Right now, there are a few people still maintaining that the multiple arty, multiple VTOL "metagame" army formula is only strengthened by the new rules, which I don't believe from what I've played so far- but then again, I believe mechs should be the most dominant force on the battlefield, not boring support vehicles. I would like to see your "proposed rules changes" ratified but for at least a little while the rules for charging can probably stay the same, until the "Mechless-Funless" armies really go away.

There will always be "super armies" and "uber-pieces" in games like the one we're playing here- But as long as those "meta-armies" center around powerful battlemechs, the game of Mechwarrior:Dark Age is exactly where it needs to be.

The problem isnt Arnis, the problem is charging. Arnis just happens to be so good at it that he personifies the problem.

We've extensively playtested 2 damage charges (3 if the charger has brawling) locally to excellent results. Definitely have to eliminate tankdrop if charges are downgraded too. Good riddance to both, frankly.

I have never had a problem with Arnis. In the about 9 or 10 games I have had to play against an army with him in it, he was held inneffective twice. Capped 3 times, destroyed about 3 or 4 times, and one game he ran amok on my support units. I am currently a perfect 100% win total aginst him. He does not phase me.

As for any startegy to stop him, I tend to play a Bannson/Dragons Fury hybrid army. DF Donars have killed him, DF infantry (Kanazuchi,Fenrir) have capped and destroyed him. Stephanie Ehli has shot the hell out of him. He's been rammed by DF Maxims, and Bannson Saxons. I have even harrased him with Bannson Lampreys. Maybe it's just me.maybe the player calibers are a little lower that at other venues (I seriously doubt that though as the people I usually see with him are great tacticians, and are strong SC players in my area.) Maybe I have been really lucky? Who knows, but I fear not Arnis, Waiting to smash his buddy Faisel though, as he hasn't been used at my venue lately.

Hi Guys!

Just My 2 Cents.

Given the progresssive character of our community over here. Weve been play testing a rule-set variant called New Grounds derived from the Solaris rule-set. Just thought I'd share two of the best (in my opinion) provisions for Mech battle. Please post your thoughts.

Dodge : Performed during an opponents turn upon the announcement of a ranged attack. Prior to the die roll of the attacking player but after the declaration of a ranged attack, Defending player declares a "Dodge" order, rolls a 1d 6 and takes a click of heat. On a result of 4,5 or 6. The defending mech takes half (rounded down) the printed damage (heat modifiers apply) on the attacking unit's dial. On a result of 1,2 or 3 the defending mech takes the full printed (heat modifiers apply) damage on the attacking unit's dial. All pertinent SEs apply. Observe heat rolls appropriately.

Block: Performed during an opponents turn upon the announcement of a close combat attack, charge or DFA. Prior to the die roll of the attacking player but after the declaration of a close combat attack, Defending player declares a "Block" order, rolls a 1d 6 and takes a click of heat. On a result of 4,5 or 6. The defending mech takes half (rounded down) the printed damage (heat modifiers apply) on the attacking unit's dial. On a result of 1,2 or 3 the defending mech takes the full printed (heat modifiers apply) damage on the attacking unit's dial. All SEs apply. Observe heat rolls appropriately.

We've been playing with these changes for a while now and they do really even out the game by limiting both Charging and Tank Drop damage from being positively crippling!

P.S. Many thanks to Palanthir for coming up with this.

Comments are most welcome.

I think that any solution will have to be a simple one.

For instance, the "shoot your attacker" thing is pretty good. What makes sense to me is that the defender can fire at the attacker, provided the attacker is within 2x the defender's max range when the charge begins (making range relevant again).

Shorter charge distances are good.

Also, Charge is desperate and random. Why is it that Hand-to-Hand weapons, designed for close combat dominance, do 1-6 damage, while Charges are totally reliable?

How about having charges do 1-6 damage? Or, a charge can do 2 (+ brawling if applicable) damage normally, and on a critical hit, does primary + 1 (+ brawling if applicable)? I know criticals don't currently apply to charges, but it would make the "desperation" thing more relevant...

...oh, and also, on a critical flub, the charger could take 2 damage.

Note, of course, that these are totally unplaytested suggestions.

If mechs could still charge it would be fine. Just the fact that you can charge from SO FAR is a problem.

Some ideas (any or all would help):
1) Keep charge the same but make the charge distance half of what it was (same for RAMS too!)
2) Give the target a +2 to defense.
3) Give the charger damage equal to the primary damage value of the target, with a minimum of one click of damage.

I agree with SnowViper in that if you change (as proposed) any part of the "circle" of units/tactics, another will just get stronger. Where I disagree with the view, however, is that charge needs to be nerfed as much as artillery and VTOLs, either be fair and indiscriminate or nerf them all or none at all. Most players are mature enough to accept that not every single game mechanic will help them or work to their advantage with their chosen faction/Heinz 57 selection and deal with it. I couldn't begin to count the number of times I've been called cheesy for playing the armies that I do, but I maintain that unless a player changes their underlying strategy with every game, they will learn to rely on a specific tactic or combination and refine it and hone it until it is a deadly weapon in their hands. The player that calls me cheesy the most is the same player that usually runs two chargehappy agility/evade mechs in his armies and the rest is IT infantry. I see his army coming and I change my tactics accordingly, though it's not an easy victory, I adapt and change my tactics without complaining. The other player refuses to accept that I can counter his strategy and that by being predictable he is easilly defeated, instead he screams that I am cheesy and decides my army is game breaking. I am NOT, by any means putting down folks who have a hard time dealing with specific strategies, but I do call all players that have a problem with a specific unit or type to examine WHY it gives them trouble and try to adjust instead of deciding that since they can't beat it and they've declared themselves the best player they know it HAS to be broken. Any game tactic or mechanic taken to an extreme can be called cheesy, because I don't complain that I don't like my friend's chargeaholic tactics and he does complain somewhere that someone sees and makes a game change for, the game has the potential to suffer and many clever and subtle game dynamics could fall by the wayside.

Before I get flamed, I'm all for the proposed rule changes in part or in whole. I always thought the concept of increasing build totals but not commands was intriguing and have been asking to try it locally for unrestricted before all this started. I still think that if any part of the "circle" is broken, another part will get a bigger slice of the pie. I'm hard up trying to find an illustration for modern times and can only come up with this: In an attempt to make the streets safer for pedestrians, motorcycles are banned since someone got hit by one and their family cried out. Does this address the issue of getting run over by cars? Does it address the issue of some kid rollerblading without a helmet suffering from a concussion when he hits his head on the pavement? Not at all. Some people don't like powerful units that defeat their strategy, but the ones who don't like artillery might be more vocal and get artillery diminished, but it doesn't address the or fix anything for those that think/believe charge or VTOLs are just as overpowering.

There are some units, that under the proposal, will be 1/2-1/3 as effective when dealing with a threat on their doorstep that will destroy them if they don't pile on a lot of damage. The players that field these units will need to adjust and find other ways to prevent units from being in that position. I may be wrong, but from what I read in the proposal, only pogs from EACH artillery unit do not stack. Three of these "ultra-powerful" SS DI Towed AA pieces working in concert will still be able to deal 3 AP damage to 3 different targets. Instead of a pile of an "A", a "B", and a "C" pog, each target will have either 3 "A"'s or so on... Despite all I've listed about equality and the "circle", artillery can still be as powerful as it was before the change, though MUCH more order intensive. Given that, does Arnis need to be dealt with at all? As long as the players most affected can adapt, the game will not change drastically for them. Will BR players complain that they can't field two Kennys like I mentioned with the three DI Towed AA guns? Sure they'll be unhappy, but then again, that's the hazard of having such a powerful LE.

The one thing I WILL actually admit to complaining about and am somewhat upset by is this: artillery was just recently given the ability to damage a dropship, which ignores armor piercing. If pogs don't stack anymore the dropship is once again impervious to artillery fire unless a newer and stronger breed of artillery is introduced that does 3+ damage. If that happens we'll be right back where we started before all the proposed changes.

As much as I am personally annoyed by chargeaholics, I believe that the wheel is unbroken even after the proposed changes. If charge and Arnis need to have something done about them, it's because there's been something wrong with charge since day 1, NOT because the proposed changes make it more powerful than it already is.

As he often happens, I must agree with Warflail on this one. Banning pieces is just a BAD idea. Arnis is not the only mech that is a charge-monkey, he is just really good at it. Charging in general is messed up. Tank drop is messed up. Ditch them both, or at least ditch tank drops (only vehicles able to be transported are ones with "towed" in their name) and weaken charging.

Perhaps the best idea for fixing charging I canthink of is to straight up copy D&D. It very much resembles the idea of a free attack action on the part of the chargee. In D&D a charge works like this: attacker moves double their regular movement, as long as it is in a STRAIGHT LINE, and adds 2 to their attack roll then makes a regular melee attack (heck, if you want, keep the +1 to damage). The attacker also suffers a -2 penalty to AC (in MWDA defense value is directly equivalent to AC) for the REMAINDER OF THE ROUND (this would include the opponent's next turn as well). The target of the Charge gets a free attack of opportunity against the charger (in MWDA this may possibly be applied only if the attacker begins in the front arc), at their normal attack value with the -2 being applied to the charger's defense. Both attacks are considered simultaneous, and are made with the displayed stats at the beginning of the action; all damage is dealt simultaneously. In D&D this can possibly result in the death of both parties, and I do not see why that is not a possibility in MWDA.

Short version: Charger provokes a free attack from target if in front arc of target at beginning of charge. Both such attacks get a +2 to the roll (this can be cancelled if desired, I would suggest so). Damage is dealt simultaneously. The Target's free attack may be ranged or close combat, their choice (after all, they see them coming, they can choose when and how to attack, applying any applicable SEs, such as AP, Pulse, Brawling, Rapid Strike, or HTH Weapons).

Well, I think one of two solutions is best. I'd prefer the return fire option, where the charged unit get to blast the bejeezus out of the charger once it is based (apply damage simultaneously). This means a chargemonkey running after an assault mech will probably have taken more damage than it received when the dust settles, but that is as it should be. Maybe even give the unit being charged a bonus to hit (+2 to hit ?), to represent the time one has to aim as an enemy runs right towards you in a more or less straight line.

Otherwise, the only reasonable solution I see is to require a charging unit to have line of sight to it's target. This makes terrain important, and makes charging a choice unit a much harder proposition, one that requires greater setup or a mistake by an opponent to accomplish.

Incidentaly, the one game I mentioned above that I actually won with Arnis, I played with the pair of SC Dashers. Faisal Rosse got to help Arnis tag team charge(and effectively eliminate) Bart Bradshaw. Faisal got destroyed and Arnis got to run free on my opponents arty and other support. In this same battle I got to have lots of fun with the new "shake off", I even making a breakaway late in the game to kill my adversaries last infantry stand, instead of just making the close combat attack.

That game went really great, partly because of great dice, and partly because my opponent didn't expect me to come at him like that.(He had a good plan but misplaced Bart Bradshaw, thinking I couldnt reach him in a thin forest strip.) I don't remember the exact victory points, but I just managed to kill enough support units to get control of vic1 or vic2 but not both because I lost Faisal Rosse completely. Getting vic3 for a couple turns w/Arnis in the second half of the game, was the thing that really saved the game for me.

I probably won't play that army again unless I get really bored and I feel like I can just play an army for the hell of it, even if I lose.

Or how about this, on a sucessful charge the attacker takes the defenders primary damage value, while dealing it's damage value +1. If unsuccessful it just takes the one.

First, define what exactly the problem is with Arnis:

1) Charging is too good vs other mechs. Arnis is a great charger.

2) A great heat dial is not reflected to any extent in the point costs. Arnis's heat dial is great, and couple that with Evade limiting heat and it becomes amazing.

Does banning Arnis solve either problem? No. There are other units that charge well and have good dials. Perhaps not to the degree Arnis reaches, but still enough to outclass the average mech. The desired goal is NOT to remove Arnis from the game but to even the playing field so other mech are more competitive with him. I like Arnis. Evade + Agility is neat and unique. But the two things above are overkill vs most mechs even ignoring the interesting points of Arnis.

How about limiting Charge range? Does that fix Charge? No. Charge is a counter for tank drops that needs to stay in the game. Otherwise tank drop is great vs both VTOL and Mech and even against other drops and returns to prominence.

Does limiting charge damage fix it? Nope. Again, tank drop is the major issue. 3 damage (the most popular choice), even if you've gotten the tranny to push, or eat an arty burst still won't salvage it. Lets see a show of hands who wants to increase the power of tank drop? No one? It's a handful of mechs right now that keep tank drop (barely) in check and we can't handcuff them.

So what would help even out charging?

If a Mech successfully charges a Mech, the target takes Primary +1 (as now) and the charger takes Primary -1. A miss is still 1 point to the charger. Heat is the same as now. Now a successful charge hurts the other guy more than you, but there is a much more reasonable chance for him to hit back the following turn and if he does, you're behind. Brawlers will be the best chargers with their +1 but the Lego taking 3 for his 6 point charge is a lot more balanced than taking 1. And he still is the bane of vehicles--plenty powerful. Not to mention when damage gets down to 1 or 0 primary, all of a sudden charging because the "last resort" attack it should be because you can do a bit of damage without hurting yourself provided you can actually hit something.

Other decent suggestions (but that don't do enough IMHO) are the straight line only charge which adds tactical placement as a charge defense. And one I just saw for the first time above where charge range would only be limited to 1x if the target is a mech.

The other thing that can be done to reign in Arnis is change heat. Bad heat dials make mechs unplayable. Making bad heat dials less bad doesn't help Arnis at all because his heat dial is great. It brings a lot of mechs up to playable status and the fix is SO SIMPLE: Yellow rolls require 2+. Red rolls require 3+. Yellow explosions do 1. Red explosions do 2.

You mean my 300 point Derek Hasbani won't kill himself 33% of the time just because I needed to run once? Even if get unlucky and rolled a 1, I still only take 1 damage instead of 4? Yes. You took a risk and you paid a price for it--but we will stop short of costing you the game on turn 2 because you ran.

arnis is not an issue by himself.

combination of SE and ability to apply a lot of mechanics (charge, run with evade, agilty allowes you to do things you couldnt othervise since you would be charged) makes arnis one of (few) mechs that are an option in the current enviroment.

while there are othe units simmilar to arnis (chuck for example) arnis is just better owerall.

in my opinion arnis is great unit, and while he can really drop a good charge, i find myself using him to charge oponents units perhaps once of twice per game. mostly vehicles.

what some fail to realize is that this specific unit have some other uses too. but that is not the point im trying to make here. what should be considered is this...

would arnis still be viable as one of few playable mechs in current enviroment if charge would be (changed somehow to):

a) only 1x move
b) and only in straight line...
c)

well would he still be the same?

personally i think that mw as a game currently have issues that should be and hopefully will be addresses by dev team at wizkids *winks at draddog, to ge the message across*.

charging, regardless how you call it (bumberbots, chargemonkeytude...) is a mechanic that should get attention of dev team.

ideas, ideas about rule changes (some good ones where alredy discussed on these forums (ra, less damage to mechs form charge attack,... nah im not going to list them all here :P) can help evolve the game and leave the charge as it is, i mean solutions can be applied without changing the charge.

Glad to see we're having a legitimate discussion about this instead of a flame war :)

Let's take a look at Classic from some background: In there a charging unit did 1/10th its tonnage x how far it moved in points of damage while the charger took damage equal to the target's tonnage divided by 10, so there could definitely be a large difference in damage done. However it was more difficult to hit and with hit location tables that bit of damage could STILL do a lot.

So here's two idea that could be implemented separately but I think work best together;

1: +1 Defense against Charging: This doesn't change the odds TOO much but still could make a difference and give people something to think about.

2: Attacker takes Target's Primary or Primary -1 damage (Ignores Agility): This my friend is what I think would really make charging into the opportunistic/desperation maneuver it should be.

Lets take the situation a lot of people have been talking about lately, the Highlander Longbow vs Arnis. So BANG! Arnis plays bumper bots (which he SERIOUSLY wouldn't do since he is a clanner and they don't do physical attacks unless they've taken one or are out of weapons) and charges the Longbow. The Longbow has been knocked down to heavy armor, probably lost a point of attack and maybe some damage strength. Arnis has been knocked down to his first repair marker. His defense is measly 18, attack is down to an 8, speed at 9 and damage at 3. He still has agility (though its at it's last click) but he's lost his important evade and he is not getting it back. He's also probably got the Highlander player's other units smelling blood in the water, and all it will take is the Longbow breaking away or some brave infantry willing to base him to cause serious harm.

Even if we do primary -1 for 4 clicks (which would be closer to how it is in Classic) he's still lost 2 points of speed, attack and defense and had better get to a repair truck before he gets tagged.

I feel this solution would require the least amount of changing to the current rules and abilities and still not effect the balance against tank drop (most transports only do 1 or 2 points of damage max anyway so no real change there). It also better balances the difference between heavy and light mechs, as a light mech would have to seriously think about whether he should charge that Atlas while the Atlas shouldn't have to worry too much about knocking that Locust to the ground like he should. What it DOES do best is make it more practical to actually SHOOT the enemy instead of trying to tackle him, which I feel is the real spirit of the game.

Other then these, i think the free shot on the incoming charger makes sense as well, since in Classic charges would be resolved after all firing for the round had taken place. It's then a gamble for the charger whether he thinks his opponent will hit or not.