I empathize Joppu, really, but I think your original post seemed to miss the point Marduk was making.

What units are cheesy? How does one judge them? *Who* judges them?

It's insane. Units exist. Some are obviously weaker than others. Good players make use of every facet of a unit - such that the strong point of good units become amplified in play. Bad players often don't learn from their mistakes, and instead complain that good players beat them rather than admit they were bested.

I stand by my doll comment (though it's not aimed at you Joppu).

Perhaps I should explain more clearly what I mean.

If people think that playing a strategy game involves throwing any old assortment of random units together, and that such a rag-tag team is supposed to have as good a chance at winning as a well-designed army, then I suggest they are the sort of people who would obviously rahter play with dolls than engage in a contest.

Remember that when you strip away the rules, the dials, the dice, and the purposeful goal (which is strategy), we really are just playing with tiny, plastic, robot dolls. It's the strategy and contest that makes this a game instead of a tea party. And the most important step to winning a strategy game is making harsh choices - this is the same in Civ3, Warcraft III, Warhammer, Chess, Bridge, you name it.

I don't believe, right now, that there are any "cheesy" units in Mechwarrior. That may be because I've played this game so much that I've seen almost every unit on the table at one time or another. I've seen bad players lose with the same unit that helped the good players win. I've seen great units used badly, and bad units used ingeniously. And I've seen Arnis die. Oh lordy, have I seen him die. It's funny, a lot of players use Arnis so poorly (they must have "heard" that he's so great) that they often end up beating themselves. A great mech going to waste more often than not. Arnis isn't "cheesy" - he's just a well-designed, quality mech. Let's instead ask Wizkids why they don't make more good mechs!

A point could be made that the rules for stacking pogs *are* imbalanced. I'd agree. But that just means in such a case, most players should include a 2damage/2pog artillery in his or her army. If you refuse to do so because you think it's not fair, you're (the "editorial" You) insane - when everyone has access, it's a level playing field. Y'know, SW Padillas are still amazing, amazing arty pieces, and you can find them easily.

Artillery units themselves are not "cheesy", they're just very strong in the context of the current rules.

That's called flavor. Many people, myself included, feel that stacking artillery leaves a bad flavor in the mouth. Fine, but until it gets officially changed, people gotta live with it or learn to become gracious in defeat.

Same thing goes for VTOLs - if people haven't figured out yet the defenses like Camoflage, or AA guns, or a single hit from an average unit stops VTOLs nicely, then I fear they never will.

Let's hope for more quality units that are worth playing, instead of slagging the ones that already are.

nightmoor: i like my army! :P actually, i've had plenty of success with it, though i'd never take it to worlds or anything like that...

i laugh at one of my friends for calling all VTOLs cheese...then again, he hasn't bought a booster since FFE...he keeps meaning to though. that's where that line came from.

i think the main frustration from cheese comes with the lack of variety that only having about 20 'great" pieces in the game entails. i want to see other things on the board than the same AAA in a transport and other stuffs...i'm sure others do too.

though it's REALLY satisfying to beat someone with the a faction pure army that they laugh at because of the lastest read-made army they either bought off ebay or ripped from this website :D

Well...in yesterday's 300 point constructed I used my RotS pure army:

Cougar 122
Balac 48
Balac 48
DI Towed 40
DI Towed 40

I went undefeated and beat a SW team with 2 Padilla's, Chin Wolf, 2 Fenrirs and a SSw Scout VTOL.

In the final round I beat a DF/SW team that used the DF Blade and BUNCH of Infantry and a SW Padilla.

Chin and Blade both ran across the board and charged my arty. They both ended up destroyed by my Cougar.

Chin ended up leaving one of Arty one click from salvage and shut down...that heat dial gets bad quick. I then charged my Cougar into his 6 and it was a couple pulse shots to finish him off...yeah my Cougar ended up shut down too...but I had plenty of time to cool off and restart as my other arty and both Balacs chased his arty/infantry across his DZ.

The Blade salvaged one of my Towed on round one (We hoinestly forgot the first turn immunity thing...opps!) but again my Cougar came into the Blades rear arc...but he got the spin in this case...I still hit and after 4 clicks that Blade was hurting. Pulse on the next round and he was scrap and I was shut down again. :)

But he focused his Padilla on my other arty while one Balac focused on his infantry...my armor made me immune to them...or so I thought. Energy? Oops! Yeah...one balac was knocked to within one click of salvage (so I sent him to collect some VC3's for me) while my other one mopped up the infantry.

I lost both arty to the DF player and swept him.

So...since I run 2 VTOLs and 2 Arty I use cheese right? What about the Mech? I ran one of them? Heck if I know I won't face any arty I would have ran one Balac and 3 Po's so...

The discussion should be around broken units, not cheesy tactics. That was the point of my discussion in the recent poll. A game that does not include some sort of tank drop, vtol, artillery and a charge mech is not much of a game.

Maybe we should be talking about:

1) DF schmidt drop
2) arnis
3) DF donars or SS Balacs
4) SS AA artillery

Its armies that show up combos of the above that get my goat. None of the above are iunbeatable by themselves but work well in combination.

Broken units?

1. Is the DF Marksman drop any better?
2. Well Faisal is a little more managable not having agility or evade, but a 26" charge for 5 damage, it still does well.
3. Other VTOLS suck?
4. What about the SW Padilla?

Are these units truly broken or are they simply the best units out there. Competitve players tend to gravitate towards using the best unit. Are you saying if these units did not exist the game would be fine? Or would we simply be seeing the next tier of "best" units?

I'm not saying the game is fine, I guess I'm just agreeing with NightMoor here.

To me, If you are not playing faction pure, you likely are playing cheese. There is no other reason to play impure factions, besides cheese IMO

Wow, what a rehashed discussion for the most part, but constructive non the less.

If you want to play an army w/o being accused of chese there is one simple change to your game style you can make:

drum roll please:

Play for the Highlanders

We are the LEAST cheeseyist faction but still a tough nut to crack,
If you need an army to try for n a non-dairy substitute but still a great army (i am 9-0 using it with 3 schmits and 3 arnisis under my belt as well as 2 OEJ's)

Here it is, a balanced, combined arms force to be reconed with

Joel Nguyen - Zeus 175
Hover bike squads 14 X 4 = 56
J-37 Ordanance Transport 26
Merc Sniper Artilery 58
Peasents 5 X 3 = 15
Donar Assault VTOL 52
Lamprey Transport VTOL 37
Purifier Battle Armor 15
Caviler Battle Armor 16

450 on the dot

This is a great army, it can be VERY competitive but you have top play defensive, i am thinking of making some modifications to fit in the LE AA for the HL and replacing the Donnar (its not that powerful though very threatining)

so there is one possible answer

In this game people that dosen't have all those overpowered units should have some change to win against those who has spended millions to this game so that they could get all those cheesy units to they cheese armies. Its not very Gouraging to play against armies full of VTOLs, artillery and tankdrop and it takes fun from game and in my point of view fun is more important than winning. Usually people have to build they armies from what they get and this is truth in this game when you can't go and buy what you want like in WHFB and WH40k. My armies are builded from what i have but that dosen't mean that they are just builded from some random pieces, not at all. From what i have i choose units that i need and that i can use well. In one thing i agree with you, we need more better mechs.

IMO, the SC Donar is CLEARLY better than the DF Donar, and better than the SS Balac in several cases as well.

- Wraith -

1. Ahh...Yes. The DI schmidt has almost twice the effective firepower of its cousin (attack x damage).

2. Yes Faisal is a charge monkey. He is no where near as capable as his buddy arnis or agility mechs in general.

3. I would say most VTOLs suck and included them on the list only because of the recent poll. I have gone from using VTOLs to using AA with good results. The new MHI tank should put VTOLs out of commision permanently.

4. The SW Padilla requires a transport to be used effectively. That puts it at a cost total of about 80 pts. Can't compare it to a 32 pt artillery that can hit the opponents DZ on the first turn.

These are the best units out there and tend to eclipse their nearest competition. Perhaps faction pure is the best way to keep competative players from ODing on the uber pieces.

Threadjacking back to the original question of "So tell me what do non-cheese players play?"

I tend to play 'Mech heavy. Simply because my choices for tanks are mediocre at best, and I lack on effective infantry formations other than massed hoverbikes or :^: SS Purifiers. While yes, I do charge (:p), I don't make it my prime tactic at all. I usually do it as an opening shot for a close combat brawl or to finish off a wounded target that happens to be in my way. So far each of my armies that have won me tournaments in first or second place have devoted 80% or more of my build total to 'Mechs. The first tournament winning army I had utilized three Highlanders :^: Legionnaires, and the most recent tournament I went to, I fielded Collin Tolek and Jaqueline Tadaka as a pair. I also happened to play a friendly game right after during a MechWarrior Demo with a friend and fielded a 100% 'Mech force (the Spirit Cats Farmer John Star).

@mlotoole0:
I agree with that thing, faction purity could prevent cheesy players using all they pieces. That is one reason why i have talked for faction purity.

Lately, I've been playing in larger point games under the proposed rules. I've had great success with this 600 point Faction Pure army...

Mason Dunne
Skriah Paragon
RotS Balac x3
RotS DI Towed Arty
RotS Mobile HQ
RotS Zahn

Now, the balacs are there as a charge screen and mop up. I keep everything in formation. Skriah on point with Mason behind her with balacs on both sides and behind him. If I hit one of my command rolls, the whole formation can move as one (Or beat the tar out of a sinle target). It is mobile enough to avoid arty and powerful enough to put a hurtin on someone. I don't consider it cheese, because the Balacs are there as a charge screen, as opposed to being offensive pieces. But if you saw me in a tourney, would you call this cheddar?

Tony

Well stated. I couldn't agree more! ;)


@SWTony,

I didn't think VTOLS could move in formations, but I haven't played
them very much and could be wrong. To answer your question,
no, your army isn't cheese. For the reason that irishrogue cited
above. :)