It wouldn't fix a god####ed thing, it'd make things more broken as it wouldn't accurrately reflect CBT charging. Not unless that kind of damage was done on a charge of normal movement distance, which is when your 'Mech tends to take nearly equal damage on a charge.

Apparently according to what was above, those were the CBT rules. So where do you say it doesn't reflect CBT then?

People would be reluctant to charge...and if they do, they get hurt pretty bad. This is a logical rule, and also much more realistic. Sure it would do a crudload of damage, but to both sides, which, in my opinion is what it needed. A good fix. Simple.

Do you happen to read, Morrael? Normal movement means what the movement reads on the dial. So if a 'Mech has an 8 movement, it has to charge at 9-16" in order not to take its primary damage value in charge damage. THAT reflects CBT charging.

Charging is a great threat to Mechs, but it's also the best weapon they've got in a game ruled by Long Range. It's a paradox.

How, then, can we mess with charge WITHOUT hurting the Mech's playability?

Simply make it harder for Mechs to charge other Mechs! Add a defense modifier or something! I guarantee you, it won't make Mechs more playable in an environment run by VTOLs and artillery, but it won't make them any LESS playable, now will it? :rolleyes:

Quite possibly one of the most intelligent things I've heard on this thread out of anybody else other than myself. Thank you, Velox!

This statement is also not that accurate. Charges in CBT may not have been a first strike option, but neither is it a last ditch effort. It is a viable tactic for speedy mechs.

It's also not true that it did a considerable amount of damage to the charging mech as well as to the charged. More often than not, it did more damage to the charged mech.

Note that in CBT, the damage to the charged mech is the charging mechs tonnage divided by 10 rounded up, multiplied by the number of hexes moved. The damage to the charging mech, on the other hand, is simply the charged mech's tonnage divided by 10 rounded up.

For example, if a Legionnaire is able to move 11 hexes to charge an Atlas and hits, it would do (50 tons / 10 x 11 hexes) a whopping 55 points of damage. On the other hand, the Legionnaire would only take (100 tons / 10) 10 points of damage from charging the Atlas.

I would like to see Mech combat be more long-ranged, instead of charging all the time, but I also understand it's a viable tactic. Considering the question of "how to tone it down without 'nerfing' it completely", consider the following options, and please state your opion/preferences:

1) Armor works against Charge damage

2) Charged units get a +1 Defense modifier

3) Charge is restricted to 'walk' movement range

4) Only Mechs that are in Salvage *or* that have a Melee Weapon slot may Charge

5) Charge deals Primary - 1 (to a minimum of 1) to the mech doing the Charging

Obviously I'll be heavily biased towards the first option, as I suggested it earlier in the thread, and it changes the least amount of rules in the process yet weakens the charge to a point where Barry Segal can't completely incapacitate the bulk of 'Mechs and outright kill most every vehicle in the game on an opening charge.

Using options 1 & 2 makes charges less damaging all around to most units used in the current meta game (which seems to be the issue concurrently) and makes them a little more risky, especially when charging units that already feature a high defensive value.

Option 3 I'm heavily opposed to, since a charge doesn't imply a 'Mech bumbling into another, but performing a full-on tackle, this this is a highly unrealistic change and likely won't be too popular except amongst the fanatical side of the anti-charge crowd.

Both option 4a & 4b are also ones I'm heavily opposed to. Charging is not a last ditch effort, thus making it a salvaged-only tactic totally destroys the concept of the charge special attack. Making it utilizable only by 'Mechs with the melee damage symbol means that you're going to see a massive rise in heavy charge damage 'Mechs, not just ones like Arnis Drummond or Barry Segal.

And to be honest, Option 5 is just a confusing way of saying "we're removing the +1 charge damage modifier."

Actually I meant for #4 to be considered as a *unit* -- that is, IF a mech is in Salvage, or IF a mech has a Melee Weapon slot, then it may make a Charge attack. Thus only a mech that met one of those two may make a Charge attack; it wasn't meant to be "choose A" or "choose B" sort of thing.

And I guess I wasn't clear on #5, either. What it was meant to be was this:

The *target* of the Charge takes Primary + 1 damage (just like now) and the *charger* takes Primary minus 1 (unlike now, when it just takes 1, period) with a minimum of 1 damage the charging unit does to itself. In no way was it meant to imply that the Primary+1 was being changed to Primary-1. It was meant to change the amount of damage done to the *attacker*, not to the target.

Is that clearer?

Thank you, Buckaroo. 1, 2, 3 and 5 would fix it nicely. Try to get 4 involved, and the chargeapes will come out of the woodwork to stop you.

Obviously, TKrys is very much in favor of the current disposition towards charge, so trying to convince him of any fix that would actually...*gasp*...return the spirit of the game to what it was intended to be (RANGED COMBAT) is futile.

At this point, I would just be happy if they banned charge altogether. Screw the "metagame"...its a ridiculous concept to begin with.

Well, even though I'd like to see Mech combat return to pretty much a ranged afair with charge as a seldom-used option, I'm not really trying to convert anyone to anything. Just gathering up or coming up with some possible options that sound reasonably balanced without nuking Charge completely, and asking for opinions. Everyone's got one, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. ;)

I'm not a charge monkey by far, and I do use ranged combat more than I do close combat or special attacks. The way I look at it, the only thing that makes charging broken really is the fact that armour doesn't protect against it and death from above and the +1 damage modifier. Remove those, and viola. Charging's fixed IMO. And if charging gets some of the utterly assanine suggestions passed as "fixes", I want to see tank drops similarily shot to pieces as a fix.

Finally, something we agree on.


Since we have a few CBT players watching this thread, perhaps someone could explain to me the following:

In CBT, a speedy battlemech ran for perhaps 9-12", on average.

A regular Inner Sphere PPC considers 7-12" to be only "medium" range, and can fire out to 18". An Ultra AC-5 could fire out to 20", an ER PPC 23" and an AC2 24". Clan weapons go all the way to 30".

Someone please tell me how WizKids got the idea that a mech can run further--in one turn--than a PPC can effectively shoot.

Don't say they needed to scale back the weapons ranges to fit the playing area, because they took no care to also scale back the movement distances.

Perhaps the solution lies in making the printed movement on the dial the actual run speed, instead of the walking speed...

Actually, TKrys, as a matter of fact, I do read. I was simply supporting what LaoCain stated as CBT based charge rules for MWDA. I was unaware of the rest of the charging rules, as I haven't played CBT recently. But making sarcastic comments or insults is not a very good debating technique, as it shows that you cannot intelligently debate something without throwing an insult in.

that rules might work if you add this

every mech that got killed has the same thing

*splas dammage *
reasonning :

mech that being destroyed, usualy it's fusion engine will explode and dammage unit that to close to it. :)
*ceptin ice mech tho i still don't understand about the raider mech what kind of engine it mount ? sequential turbo dissel with NOS strap to it ? *