@Murgen: speaking just for myself, I'm mostly trying to determine if this is really an ongoing issue, or if the new rules and build totals have evened this out to make it a valid, but less uber tactic.

As to my suggestion: hasn't been playtested at all, came to me in a flash of insight, wanted a little input before play testing.

>>Big formations may be back.<<

No way, artillery is STILL way too good, and only a fool would field a formation under the current artillery rules.

Try a formation of 5 units, against any 2-damage artillery...wow, it can deal 10 damage on a successful hit, generally from all the way across the board. That's MIGHTY good, and breaking it down to 3 units is still too good, especially if you use expensive pieces.

Take care,,

Rick

1. I thought that was the whole purpose of APCs in the first place?? To transport something from point A to B faster than it could otherwise on it's own (or at least giving it some arty protection in so doing). I don't think WK ever meant it to become a form of first-strike.

2. The thread author's idea applied only to offloaded VEHICLES. When did Towed Autocannons become vehicles??

I have seen this proposed solution on the boards before ... and I actually consider this one of the better ones. I do believe, however, that AP can still be used on move-n-shoot with VTOLs can it not? If so, then that would indeed have to be FAQ'd if this change were to be done to tank-drop. IT should certainly not be permitted ... there's no way a targeting computer is going to be able to stay within gimbal limits of the gyro as the vehicle is offloaded to be able to give accurate targetting info. You could almost justify taking it a step further. NO UNITS may use IT the turn they are offloaded (so much for the Kanz and TAC-drop accuracy) ... and all vehicles additionally get a -2 to their attack value. Shrugs. That's a bit extreme ... but just one thought.

Actually, doomboy, you are only partially correct.

By eliminating stacking, artillery without armor piercing can only hurt units without armor, and units with armor piercing can only hurt a little.

Here is an example: I am running a formation of 5 steel wolve Fenrir armor. They have reactive armor. In the old days, you could take a 2 pog, 2 damage per pog artillery and inflict 2 points to every unit in my formation. The 4 points stacked, and my reactive only shrugged off two points. With the new rules, that shot can only do two damage, which my armor shrugs off.

Worse would have been a 2 pog, 2 damage per pog, with armor piercing. Which would do 4 damage to all of my fenrirs, effectively killing them. Now, it only does two damage. They are still in the game.

I have been playing with the revised rules for over a month now. Due to the larger point totals, formations are a necesary evil, PARTICULARLY when there is a large number of artillery pieces. You simply cannot move enough pieces fast enough without them.

OK, this is off topic, but if you LET your opponent pog your 5 infantry formation then something is wrong. Let's look at a possible game and make a few assumptions:
1) Your opponent has 2 artillery pieces, assume both are 2 dam AP.
2) You ALSO have 2 artillery pieces, both 2 dam AP.

OK, now your opponent has a choice, pog your arty, hoping to destroy it befoe you destroy his with counter battery fire, or pog your infantry, hoping his VTOLs and other anti-arty units neutralize your arty before taking out his arty.

Now if you are both competent players you'll have J-37s to perform the 'arty-dance' and keep your arty in the game as long as possible.

OK, let's look at this: You are player 1
Player 1: Pogs player 2 arty, moves mech, moves transport VTOL towards enemy lines. (Your formation DOES NOT move until you know where enemy pogs are going . .. don't give them a free shot!)
Player 2: Sees that your arty or vtol are bigger theats to his arty and pogs the moved VTOL (if he has 2 shots one each go to your arty and vtol). Moves mech and picks up arty in J-37.

Round 2:
Player 1: resolves arty with nothing to hit. Fires 2nd arty on player 2's 2nd arty. Transport VTOL moves and drops infantry. Infantry waits. Infantry formation moves up. (Mech Clears)

Player 2: Resolves arty: does only 1 dam if it hit (arty is in transport). No target left in the VTOL. Fires 2nd arty at infantry formation. Mech action (charge/fire/ whatever!), Picks up second arty in J-37.

Round 3:
Player 1: (seeing the arty picked up decides to chance the possible 1 dam vs taking a guaranteed 1 dam for pushing. Resolve arty. Fire arty on transports, transported infantry bases transports. Done.

Player 2: try and break from infantry to drop 1 arty. Arty fires on player 1 arty. mech vents.

and so on.

Obviously actual play depends on actual units, but with two evenly matched armies, the arty has more to worry about than your infantry formation, unless they are willing to sacrifice that arty for a few damage on the infantry.

Infantry simply aren't a big enough threat compared to charging mechs, tank drop, VTOLs and arty to 'waste' the arty shots.


Thoughts?

I dunno, I still think the simplest fix for tank-drop is the MK way: the transported unit cannot act the turn it's dropped.

Clean. Simple. Balanced.

Big formations will not be able to charge willy nilly accross the field. However, their are good ways to eliminate artillery in a turn or 2. Plus, you just won't see as much of it with the new rules. Mark my words, formations are coming back. For 120-160 pts you can put together a beast.

I like simple!

And, while I feel this is an issue worth tweaking, I have to point out something that helps make the opposition's case: vehicles are towed. They are in no situation driving out of transports, down ramps, etc. Kinda does away with that argument.

They ARE, however, being unhitched. That would require the transport to stop, troops to unhook the vehicle, troops to get onboard, vehicle to star under it's own power,etc. Which would lead me toward the idea of the towed vehicle not being able to shoot on the same turn as being unhitched.

There are always people who will say "If you can't do X, then Y becomes [pick one: too powerful, or; useless]. I will admit that ANY change in rules requires new tactics. That's as true in real life as it is in a game. Chnage happens.