All I can tell you from personal experience is from WWE. Last year the DC Heroclix set lasted a long time. Marvel's Ultimates presell, this year, was out before they ran out of Galactus'. Indeed, many, many people were complaining WizKids didn't have enough (I wouldn't be suprised if you saw few presells at conventions after the complaints about this). This was about the time of retirement (a week or so before?).

Of course, other factors could apply to this. Maybe there were fewer Ultimates this year than DC last year (I wasn't at the booth last year, so I couldn't speak to that). Maybe Marvel Heroclix is that much more popular than DC. Maybe the Galactus offer brought more Heroclix fans in than the Dropship offer did last year.

One factor noone is considering. Retirement means alot of things, possibly. But it definitely means less total pieces to choose from. And it impacts the game in several ways.

1. Variety of Choice
Right now, there is a finite quantity of figures to choose from. Only 4 Atlas' for example. So, if you don't like the 4 of them, you don't have a choice. The same goes for every other figure out there. There are only 4 Raiden BA, 5 Zues, and so on and so on.

2. Archetypes
With a limited variety, you see the same patterns in army builds. True, with retirement, you see different choices, but not more, so the net result is a rotation of the archetypes, not an elimination of them. The counter for infantry swarm, is AnP, but there are only so many units with AP. The counter for artillery is speed, but how many 14 speed units are there? And so on and so on.

3. Faction Purity
At this point, the number of units for choice, belonging to any one faction is not higher than 110, taking into account Falcon's Prey. So, to build pure faction forces, you have a relatively small pool to choose from. And let's not debate that 110 is small, since it's well known that a solid 70% of the units produced are useless for anything other than point fillers. Without useful units, players have to turn to other factions to build armies with, increasing the cries of "cheese" from the players who want faction purity. Where are you going to get command from if you're a Stormhammers player? A CJF player? How about Sea Fox? Maybe you'll be better off getting that Merc Mobile HQ that can't move in your formations? Make no mistake, faction purity is one answer to alot of the "ills" of the game. And retirement makes faction purity more difficult.

4. Collectibility
Already we are seeing several attempts to make collecting the figures easier. The devaluing of the LE's by inserting them into boosters, the repetition of prizes, and so on. With retirement, people are not looking for as many pieces, the sale of boosters drops, and in effect, the sales of the games drops. With tournament rotation, players are going to only look for the "uber" pieces for armies, and collectors are going to be the only ones who aren't looking to the singles market.

5. Tournaments
Already MK and HC have retirement in effect. And their tournament scenes are dropping like flies. I can't tell you the last time I saw a venue run a MK tournament with more than 2 people. I really hope they are out there, but I can't find any. HC is going the same way. MW interest has dropped, but still holds a decent turnout in many venues. 6 - 12 players is pretty common, and a far sight better than the 2 - 4 average for HC or MK. Due directly to retirement? Maybe, maybe not, but it's certainly a factor.

6. Survival
MK saw huge numbers of fans leave the game over 2.0 and retirement. Finding out that they couldn't use their favorite figures anymore was a crushing blow. The same will easily be felt in MW should retirement and 2.0 happen. True, the 2.0 revamp was a good thing for MK that truly upgraded the game, but it was too quick, and forced all the changes into place at once, a mistake that hopefully WK has learned from.

7. Profitability
With the failure of Creepy Freeks, Crimson Skies, Shadowrun and now Sprotsclix, WK needs either a big win, or alot of small solid sales. Revamping MK didn't help. Re-releasing HC didn't help (the same figures that I already have? I know plenty of people who bought starters but not boosters) So, what's left? Pirates and MW. Pirates is selling well, but has a low profit point. MW has a higher profit point, but sales are slow on the last set. (No real surprise there, its' been 8 months since a set got released) Make no mistake, the LE's in the boosters, as well as the dropship coupon are simply tools to hopefully sell more boosters. If it works, great, but if it doesn't....

Sorry about the long post, but there's alot to this point of debate. You can't simply fix one thing and solve everything. To WK, MW isn't a game, it's a product, something they have proven over and over. To us, it's a game, sometimes more of a passion. But, unless and until those two views are synchronized, they are always going to be in conflict.

You forgot about the Consumers. Thier expectations, feelings, and views,

Every other buissness take the consumer into acount at every stage of development and expansion. But WK just kicks us off in the corner and forgets about where their profits acctually come from.

And also the Envoys. WK lost a lot of Envoys last summer (for a variety of reasons), many of whom had been running events for several years. In some areas, venues lost their only Envoy, and so lost sanctioned play. My FLGS now runs only HC and Sportsclix, whereas last spring, they ran MK, MWDA, and HC. Sales of MK and MWDA are flatlined, and the kids who played those games are moving on to others (Warmachine, CAV, D&D, etc).

The envoys that WK lost had to be planned. Don't you think they realized that the changes would upset alot of envoys? That the new system would make it easier to get rid of envoys? three black marks? And you can get a black mark for just about anything too.

They have a smaller core of envoys, who are running less events. The number of events per type, like each Campaign, Marquee or other type, was cut back dramatically, from 1000, to 500, to 300. The number of venues that are active has dropped significantly. (Just take a look sometime, do a search on Venues in your state, then do a search for Events in your state. See how many venues aren't running a thing. And you can do the same in any state.) The plan is apparently, to cut back on the support and hope that booster sales go up. Any second year marketing student can tell you that isn't the way it works. If brand X wants to sell more cans of giggles, you can't take down half the advertising. You have to increase it. Put the brand X name on arenas, sports events, tshirts, bumper stickers, and anything else you can. Develop brand loyalty. Ensure that your product is the best that it can be, and meets the consumer's expectations and desires. WK had a very good Sales and Marketing team. Now they have a Community Development team. The two things do not equate.

It still all falls down to sales. If they don't sell Pirates well, and Falcon's Prey doesn't do well, and Sorcery doesn't do well, then eventually, Topps will close the doors. A company can only do so many things losing money. So, how do you make money? You spend money. You get those envoys excited. You get the players excited. You get the consumers excited. Sell the license to comic books, movies, cartoons, or anything else you can get going. (Heck, I bet Cartoon Network would snap up a license for a MW cartoon) They spend the money to build whatever license they buy, and pay you for it in the process. But the moment you do that, and the moment it gets out there, you better be ready with product.

Example: When Spider Man came out, there was only one event tied to the movie, a life-size heroclix game done in Florida. Great idea. Did WK send out slides to have inserted into the advertising before the movie? No. Did WK make up promo pieces to have the envoys give out at the door? No. Did WK offer Sony a tie-in promotion, to give a promo piece to some ticket holders, and have those ticket holders go to a local venue/envoy to register for a chance for some prize? No. A ticket in the DVD of Spider Man for a free starter kit or booster? A single mention of an advertising catch phrase like "You've seen the movie, now play the game"? No. Any other promotions? No.

The same can be said for Daredevil, Spider Man 2, Hulk (and please don't get into the "bag o hulks" as they were sent to venues, not the theatres, and the venues wanted to sell them) the upcoming Blade 3, Daredevil 2, Spider Man 3, or anything.

Overall, WK has a great penchant for making games. Noone will argue that MK2.0 is an amazing game. But, and you knew there had to be a but, when they alienated the core gamers for 1.0, and then failed to do good promotion for 2.0, failed to have a support system ready for the game, failed to bring in new players in the droves they lost the old players, they simply set the game up to fail.

Again,
Creepy Freeks is dead.
Shadowrun is dead.
Crimson Skies is dead.
Sportsclix is almost dead.
Mage Knight is coughing up blood.
Indy Heroclix is dead.
DC Heroclix has pneumonia.
Marvel Heroclix is limping.
MechWarrior is limping.
Pirates is a baby.
And Lord of the Rings epic is on the shelf.

With WK making about $1 profit on each booster of MW, they need to sell about 10 million boosters. And they don't make that many.....

xyberbratt - I don't think that they planned it. Instead, I honestly believe that they simply never realized that it would be an issue. WK didn't listen to criticism, ,and some of the more vocal critics (most of whom were their most ardent supporters) were canned for failing to toe the party line.

If you go onto the forums for other game systems, you see a lot of familiar names, and some of the ones who got canned have started running things for other systems. In this case, WK not only halved the advertising (as in your example), they also sent their sales and marketing staff to go work for the competition.

Maybe WK will make it through this. Maybe not. From some of the rumors, it sounds like the groupthink philosophy still prevails, where dissenting opinions is not only frowned upon, but actively punished. When that attitude is paired with the cogintive disconnect from reality that some staffers show (a la "We here at WK consider WWE (in 2003) to have been a smashing succes"), then my magic 8 ball says that all signs point to No.

Since rock and stones are gathered for an old fashion stoning :)
let me step up and be one of the first in line to be hit.

Part of what you saw with the Envoy program was developed by me, but how it was implemented I had nothing to do with.

It is kind of like weapon control issues, we issue weapons to people everyday, police, miliatry, security, drive licenses ;) & etc
but saying the system is broken because of the equipment is not the true (or the whole truth).

Every day how you treat each others determines the actions/reactions of others down the road. Some people are not good at implementing authority and some are not good at power and responsibility balance.
Most importantly, most leaders forget that they are only as good as those under them. If they try to make them selves look good they will fail. If they work at giving all the tools, actively mentor and know how to deal with people in a positive manner no matter what they do, then they will be known as good leaders.

All I am saying is that the people who lead must realize that every little action that they do is under the microscope. And when you are not consistent, treat others unfairly, punish with out cause or reason (or explanation), you will cause fear, unrest and ‘treason’ (whether passive or active).

So did WizKids not realize what they were doing, Yes and No. It is like their PR problem, they just don’t realize how the fans are going to take it and they don’t present it in a palatable way for others to accept.

Once again just one man’s opinion.

Have a good one

Dave Chase

Wonder if this post will get removed. So far not counting this one, I am 2 for 2 in staying since the sudden spree of remove Dave’s posts.

Not all the changes were bad - and not all were good, either. But the actual implementation (and the high-handed manner in which is was done) were what really sucked.

So, since you're claiming some responsibility for the inception, I guess we'll have to include you, but we'll use the smallest rocks. ;)

Kai, would those be small little ones like the size of BB's or the small little ones the size of eggs or ? (just trying to get a prespective of size)

I mean should I feel left out or insulted because I only get the small ones (LOL).

Or should a feel like a crusader that just walked into 'heck" and put my hand up and yell, "ME FIRST, I want to be First one struck".

ROFL

Well I hate to argue this point, but I think some of those early volunteer "dismissals", say around March - May of last year, count as the "first ones struck"

Ah, mine was June. Can I still count myself in that first wave? ;)

hah!, i left my envoy status last november!

Actually mine goes back even before all that,
When my VP hired someone to replace me, with out telling me until 3 months later.
And of course they told me 3 weeks after I turned down a job in design to boot.

(sigh) the good old days. (snicker) But I must admit that my first year at WizKids was the best time both my professional and personal life. Worked my ### off everyday and out of 365 days of employement, I only had 17 not so good to bad days.
And only 1 of those bad days did I get up in the morning and cuss the fact that I had to go to work.
Yes, sir my first year at WizKids was the best, fun job that I have had that I actually got paid for.

Dave
Have a good one.

And THAT ... ladies and gentlemen ... lays at the very heart of the problem I think for many of the players who have issues with this game.

Mechwarrior: Dark Age is not supposed to be Classic Battletech. But it IS from the same universe ... it continues and builds on the previous history of that system. It uses a lot of the same units from the past.

But it just does not have the same feel to it.

Nowhere in the rules or in play do we get a sense that Battlemechs ... which are supposed to be the heart of combat in this universe are even REMOTELY as powerful as they are advertised and expected to be. If things were different and say for example that, oh, infantry were somehow woefully underpowered in the rules and mechs were not, you wouldn't hear anywhere near the amount of furstration you do now over this game. Why? Because infantry aren't supposed to be the focus of the game.

If you love apples and hate oranges and pick up an apple from a tree and bite in to it and it tastes like an orange ... yer gonna pitch it ... regardless of how much it LOOKS like an apple. Odd example I know.

The point is ... a lot of people play MW because it is ABOUT Battletech. But if the feel and play of it is too far gone from that .. then players will get frustrated and leave.

Currently mechs are pretty much on the bottom of the totem poll of unit-power ... and WK seems either unwilling to make any changes to significantly change that ... or that they are just taking far too long to do so. Either way, the game is rapidly heading towards a major breakdown unless some pretty drastic changes are made.

I agree totally with Topgun505 (at least the above post)