In those games are squad members forced to remain in formations, or can any figure do anything?

Celtos: Never even so much as read the rules. If it's at all similar to their other produce Void, then there is a squad/unit coherency setup. Download the rules for free and find out. :)

Confrontation: You puchase units, but there are no actual unit requirements in terms of spatial location. Units can be as small as 1 figure anyhow. English language rules will apparently be available next month.

Chronopia: Units are purchased, and there is some sort of command radius involved. On the up side, individual figures have 'actions' to spend as they will. A 2nd edition rulebook was released like a week ago.

I would think you are missing the point of having a swarm.

If you surround a Storm Golem with 5 Elven recruits you are going to need the combat formation to put a dent in the Stormie, so your "extra guys" aren't standing around, they are helping your attacker do his job. Adding 4 to his 8 attack (12) so you are going up against a 18 def and therefore going for a min roll of 6. If you are sucessful you do 2 damage. Alternatively you could decide to split your formation, do a 3 and 2 attack, if you are lucky, roll and 8 or better, do 2 damage, and drop the defense of the Stormie to 16 then try another attack with 2 ER's with 9 on 16. A better roll and a possible 4 damage to the stormie. That's saying you still have 5 ER after you base the stormie and your opponent doesn't decide to wipe one of them out.

but c'mon what stormie should be afraid of a little 13pt fig? Besides if you have a larger fig handy your opponent might not want to attack and have to push to engage to tougher fig. Melee screen of lesser figs to tie down the ranged attack of the Stormie doesn't hurt either. ( yeah trying to base the stormie with its inevitable entourage and 3 ranged attacks, but that's strategy for another day.)

Am I off base here?

Bob

Does it really matter what kind of fig surrounds the "Storm Golem". Does itt matter what these figs rating or point cost is?
Does it matter if each of my figs had a token on them? Even so, I can only PUSH 3 individual figs OR 3 FORMATIONS...there alone you can see the flaw.

The issue is ACTIONS PER TURN.

I have two to three times the number of troops in amy army and still we move the same number of times. It doesn't matter if they miss or hit...it's the number of actions per turn.

Not flaming anyone...again, just something to think about.

Again, I'm not seeing any problem here that needs to be fixed.

The reason formations exist in the game is because the number of actions is determined by the point limit of the army.

Why wouldn't it? Would you rather surround it with five Goblin Volunteers or five Blade Golems?

Balduvian,

A better way to explain my point is by laying down armies.

My army
Formation 1
*** E@A
*** E@A
*** E@A
*** E@A
** Standard Bearer

Formation 2
*** E@A
*** E@A
*** E@A
*** E@A
** Standard Bearer

* Shade x2

Opponent's Army

Phat Fig 1
Phat Fig 2

*shade x2


200 pointer game. 2 actions per turn. For the sake of simplicity, let's remove the shades in the equation.

Facts:
1. Opponent can move 2 figs for 2 actions per turn.
2. I can opt to move 2 individual figs, that's two actions per turn.
3. OR, I can opt to move 10 figs in one turn (2 formation movements), that's 2 actions in a turn, moving 10 FIGURES as opposed to the other army's 2 figs.

True statements:
1. Assuming I opted to move in formation ALL my figures get 1 token EACH for taking an action.
2. Two Phat figs moved and eachgets action token.
3. So...10 individual figs moved, 10 action tokens each. My opponent moved 2 Phat figs, each getting 2 action token markers.

Let's say for convenience sake the 2 phat figs were surrounded by my 2 formations with no way out. Again, lets clear all the tokens.

Facts -- FLAW.
1. My Opponent's army can make 2 actions, in this case since there is no way out, 2 individual attacks.

2. Since it's a 200-pointer game, I can make 2 attacks as well. That's 2 actions from my E@A's doing a total of 3 and 3 damages no matter how many help making FORMATION attack bonuses.

3. On my previous turn, I was able to move 10 figures (forced march) with 2 ACTIONS, but when it was time to ATTACK, out of the 10 figures, ONLY 2 were able to attack dealing 3 and 3.


Think about it.

---------------------


I love the game.
I am not here to change the rules.
Just some things to think about...a healthy discussion maybe.

What? Last time I checked you could attack in a combat formation with a total of 6 figures for 2 actions while he is only able to attack with 2. This gives you a huge + to attack and you can attack with those that didn't attack the next turn whereas he'd have to push to do that. As it says in the rules, with the huge + to attack you might very well be able to capture a fattie. This isn't even counting the additional flanking bonus.

I don't get your logic.

Obviously, in Conquest it is much much better due to the +1/+1.

Think about this:

8 E@A's individually attacking

as opposed to --

2 attacking E@As getting pluses to hit.

I am thinking about it, and in your own stated scenario, what I see is two captured fatties and a won game for the swarm.

Even if the fatties have battle fury, it is almost guaranteed that the E@As get in 3 damage with each formation then get another chance at 3 in the next turn with those that didn't attack.

Actions seem perfectly fair to me. I have problems with some aspects of MK, but actions isn't one of them. If it weren't for combat formations, then there'd be a huge problem.

The reason people use fatties so much in Unlimited, I think, is usually because they have crazy range and speed more than that they conserve actions. Also because they can usually break away easier and some get shake-off damage. That all adds up to a lot of advantages.

blackpowdah,

You keep saying "think about it."

I've thought about it, and I still don't agree with you.

If Rebellion were to switch to a system where actions were assigned based on number of figures instead of point total, we'd get almost exactly what we got with Dungeons under the old system... people cramming every cheap figure they can get into their armies to get an action advantage over their opponent.

Why would anyone play with a Striker, that only gives them one action a turn, when they can play with 5 ***Elf-At-Arms that could give them multiple actions (only one of which is required to move them) and they can all attack in the same turn?

You seem to portray the swarm army as being at a disadvantage. It isn't. When the two-figure army is stuck either wasting actions or pushing, chances are you're going to have at least one or two Elves (since close-combat formations have a maximum of three figures) that don't have action tokens on them. That's advantage enough.

As long as the formation rules exist, I see no way to adopt a "per figure" method of assigning actions that wouldn't unduly benefit swarm armies at the expense of others.

Both forces have the same problem.

With the Shades moving for "free" so to speak, each of you has two things you can move. Either your formation or your 'fattie'.

Both will quickly find themselves resting every other turn, pushed, or even unable to do anything at all. Larger swarm armies rely on having more things than they can move on any individual turn. Which allows them to rest figures/formations instead of constantly pushing to keep up.

I haven't gotton through this whole thread yet, but I had to respond to the above. I'm betting that I'm not the first, but let me echo that you would have to be crazy to feild only 3 figures in a 300 point game.

Your unmoved figures don't just "stand and watch" they also REST, which is one of the most important things you can do in a game that dishes damage for moving your figures too much. Those perfectly suited 3 figures in the 300 point army will kill themselves from exhustion and stall every third turn (for mandatory resting) while the larger army runs them ragged.

The movement rules are perfect the way they are.

Very early on when I started playing MK, this exact argument came up .. probably many times..

Here is what I came up with as the answer. Your troups are loyal to YOU. Period. Maybe you (the player) are acting as their commander who they have swarm fealty to. Maybe you are their God acting as a diety that 'inspires' them to act.

Now imagine that you are sitting in your command chambers, heaven, whatever.. and when you want someone to do something you send a messenger to tell them to do that thing, be it an actual messenger (you are the leader) or a spiritual message (if you're the God position), the message tells the figure what to do. You only get so many messengers based upon your wealth (that affects what size army you can afford to bring along) or your spiritual power if you wish. in any case, you canonly send so many messengers per turn and the fact that command gives you more actions is actually just someone on the field actually coming up with an idea that could help the whole army.

So for those figures that you think are acting on their own, they are not. The only figures that actually do anything to help the army effort on their own are the commanders - they try to come up with things to do. everyone else requires one of those messengers. except figures with quickness.. but they are just wanderers and they are doing that on their own because that is what they do.

All troops in your army do what they are told until they are told to do something different. "Hey YOU! Guard that tree!" "ok".. see? it works.

I see two ways to make swarm more powerful in Unlimited to help balance the new super fatties:

1) Change break away for easy break figs to: no break on 1 or 2,

2) make it +1/+1 like in Conquest.

I prefer to play 600-900 (1 action/200 points) point Conquest anyways so it makes no diff to me, the balance is fine and swarm is probably too powerful if anything.

From some trials I did I think +1/+1 is too powerful in Unlimited. +1 damage for melee(instead of +anything to attack) and +2 attack for ranged seemed pretty good though.