Actully a Dwarven Bombard compared to a Gunner really evens off. The Bombard gains 1 point of damage and 1 more defense, also with the tourny scene going less from lots of figures to a few with out any formations the Gunners F/L wont do very much. Also with a gunner most people will play some sort of ME person with them so add another 20+ points for that too.

So see it is the role you need filled that will determine the figure.

And if anyone was wondering I played a ** Spirit Taker in my army today and he worked wonders. I would go base2base with my figures then use him in a assain type role. Catching figures trying to run and putting a hurt on some others. He also netted me about 170 points with a captive.

Here's the difference:

Bombards do have 1 defence and 1 attack more than a gunner.

Bombards also only move 4 inches.

Bombards cannot be MEd.

Gunners, when you play them vs. Swarm is a huge advantage.

Gunners are Atlantian, and can pull of many neat tricks (ML, ME) that allow them to be able to get better positioning than Bombards.

If you play the Sun Prophet, or Sham-Rin, they'd be decent, at best. Otherwise, no, they aren't as usable as a Gunner. And a lot can be said for the other units listed here. Even my Wereraven. ;)

Erik S., please don't take this the wrong way. Just stickin' up for my Trogg. ;)

When I discovered what my Trogg could do in that tournament I attended, I found him facing either figs that at first glance seemed to easily outclass him, or swarms and formations of warriors that put together could have easily wiped him out. But he just made it through the entire tourney, often sustaining little damage; he was killed only once, but I was then fighting a very skilled opponent, while my Trogg survived the longest in my army, despite being on the midst of the battle the whole time.

I can't deny that most players will prefer using mounted Kruggs to Troggs- Ram is a powerful ability, while those Kruggs come mounted- bad enough on its own, you can also throw in ML. Kruggs are also tougher in the long run. Troggs will have to compete with that.

But I'd like to point out that the cheapest Warhatchett Krugg costs 36, while the most expensive Trogg costs only 35. Also, all versions of the Trogg come with two slots of Venom, 1 slot of Toughness, and at least 9 Attack and 3 Damage on their starting slot.

In addition, in the environment I play in, mounted figs, usually with Ram, are the staple figs for tourney use: often Kruggs, but also Fell Reapers, Sisliths, Cavaliers and Lancers, and Scorpem Gunners. The Trogg has shown tremendous talent for fighting mounted figs, thanks to his Toughness. Even when the opponents he fights have Toughness to counter his own Venom, he can still do decent damage himself by attacking. And speaking of Venom, it's a very useful ability since it can spare you from using up actions- against unprotected figs your Troggs is always doing damage- you don't have to spend an action to hurt your opponent. I really respect Kruggs and Ram, but you can think of Troggs as a cheaper alternative- and they don't need to spend actions to do auto-damage the same way Kruggs and other mounted figs need for Ramming or shake-off. In any case, in that tourney did I see that my Trogg did the most damage for my army.

As Hawk58 said, it's really the role on the battlefield that will ultimately determine your army selection. If you can spare for the points, it's understandable to go with the Kruggs. But if you need to cut down, or have some points leftover, please, trust me: you can't go wrong with a Trogg. Troggs are tourney-worthy.

My $0.02. I just had to say that because that Trogg of mine really surprised me when I played him. They really helped me rack up points in that tourney, and I know that they'll do well the next time I try them out.

One last thing: judging by your sig, it seems that you like to try out new and unconvential tactics and overlooked figs yourself. If I may ask a favor: give the Trogg a try, if you haven't already. When I first used mine, I wasn't really expecting him to do much, I wasn't giving him a fair shot. But he more than exceeded my expectations. :)

yeah, i was witness to that.
aquatic figs are some of the most ignored figures.

I'll add another voice of agreement on Trogs - every time I look at their numbers, I ask myself why they aren't being played.

Ack! I didn't mean to cut down Trogs, and I do understand where your coming from. If they didn't have a shallow dial, only an 8 movement (and no double base), and a form of breaking away easily, I would definately pick them over the mounted Kruggs. WAY over the mounted kruggs. Especially the red ones.

The main advantage they have over the more expensive mounted Kruggs is Battle Fury all the way down the dial.

I would definately field them in a fun army. How much fun can you have with evil humanoid frog thingies?

My main comment in the beginning is that even though there are different units for more or less the same cost, there's a reason why people only play with a specific set of figures. But I do support the effort, both by playing crazy armies, and by submitting units to forum posts like these. (People who do play with me on a casual basis know I have a love of Shyft. Don't ask me why.;))

You do realize that a ***Trog at 35 points would invariably win a 1v1 fight with a *WHK at 36 points, don't you?

If you make it a straight 50-50 on who gets the first strike, the first striker wins either way, although the Trog loses slightly less badly. BUT...

The Trog's incredible 4" RANGE! means he can force the WHK to either give up the first shot or run away. The WHK's ramming fails against the Trog's toughness. The Trog will push to do 4 points in his first turn (1 point venom plus 3 damage on a roll of 6+) and leave the WHK needing an 8 just to do 2 damage back. This will mean pushing, which will take him out of his toughness, and leave him demoralized from venom damage alone before he ever gets another attack! The Trog will have at most a mere 3 hits, and probably no damage at all (except the 1 point from push)!



Try it out and tell me I'm wrong!! :D

why not sect figs?

*** seething knight - 31 pts of 4 damage with BA, tie it with a CP and a nice formation is walking your way!

Er, I don't want to argue with you, and vs. other Rammers, they are going to have a field day. I agree with you there. In fact, if I was going to need a decent melee/short-ranged unit, and I didn't have any ML units, I'd field them.

It isn't about whether they would win in a 1v1 battle, though.

It's about who does the best non-attack damage. That is why you would throw a Venom/Ram unit in your army, right?

Ram a Amazon Draconum, and you'll automatically ping her for 1, out of her dodge.. Fling a Krugg at Technomancers (or just move at them) and you can keep them from Levving units. If it's Autumn, she can't fling you far enough to get Rammed again.

You don't get the same results if you base with a Trog.

You just give your opponent the opprotunity to smash it out of it's Venom clicks.

On the battlefield, with F&P and Big Bound dominating the tournament scene, you have to have something that can get in there, hit support, and break away so you don't feed your opponent points.

Once again, I'm not saying they are bad pieces at all... hell, I'm even gonna play one next time on your behalf. I do like trying new pieces. All I'm saying is for the purpose it serves, it doesn't do it like a Hatchetkrugg does.

I do think, though, that once some new Shyft come out, you could see a very scary Melee based formation based on Troggs. :) They are great in-your-face kind of short range fighters that Kruggs aren't. One could make a case that the reason Kruggs are being played is because of their BA.

A coupla figs I dig

#1. * HEavy Cavalier. Has 16 defense with battle armor so it can basically walk up to any ranged non-unique and play the odds. Then it has charge and weapon mastery with a decent attack of 10. Best of all it can take 6 clicks of damage. Fast enough to get away too. All this for only 35 points, plus you get mounted breakways and shakeoff- lovely!

#2. *** Throttle worm. Most people overlook the toughness. Most people overlook the 10 speed. Most people don't realize it has venom for something like 6 clicks. Can be so dangerous to support figures and is, IMO the BEST way to eliminate deathstars.

#3. Histash Levat (Level 5). This guy is the same cost (82) as the zombie baron (I think) and he can seriously mess up ANYTHING. 13 attack, 5 damage, charge, battle armor and 6 range? COME ON! 3 slots of vampirsm and 11 slots of life make this guy amazing.

#4. * Minotaur Mage. So for 32 points you're getting ram, magic blast and an ok range of 8. Keep him around later in the game and you can really, really hurt your opposition. 6 clicks of life also- not too bad.

:( I know what you mean about getting the Trogg knocked out of his Venom and Toughness clicks. I was really worried about that when I played him in that tournament.
But that's also what surprised me then: only once did it happen, and when it did, the Trogg was still alive enough to still be a threat! And I was fighting tough front-line attackers! :eek:
I have to admit, it's not that hard to hurt him- but if you play him right and spring him at the right moment, he's just deadly. He's got so much potential- yes, overlooked in favor of the more obvious strengths of other figs, but its just SO easy to bring his capabilities out.

Though I dislike the ML/Ram combo, in that tourney where I played my Trogg, I was using a ML/Venom combo. My army included a Technomancer (for the ML) plus some good ol' Throttle Worms***. Sure, ML'ing a fig is like handing a first strike opportunity to your opponent, but overwhelming him with multiple poison figs? The decent movement of the Worms and my Trogg plus the extra movement from ML allowed me to pick my targets- figs without Toughness, support figs, range attackers, etc. By moving en masse and in concert, I was able to surround and focus on just 1 or 2 prime targets. Even when they struck back, my Venom figs would still survive and do their job, often even killing my targets off before another reprisal.

Erik, good luck on your try on the Troggs. I have a feeling you won't be disappointed. ;)
Besides, Venom is such a fun ability to use...

Warlord EasySCT: Throttle Worms***! Yes, I agree with you, sir, on their effectiveness ;). I've been using them for some time now, and they are GREAT. But I have to disagree on them being put on this list- Throttle Worms aren't that overlooked. I keep seeing them being posted and praised in the Realms every-so-often. I even keep hearing about pure Throttle Worm armies! :D

Use em not so used figs for fun games bro. Maybe at least they might have good uses on low cost figure set up games. There are lotsa them right right now e.i. Xandressan Captain, Trogs, Ghouls et al.

I kinda enjoy games using this kinda figs. to divert from the typical regular used armies...just dont fight me with those usual stuff or i'll surely teach you lessons on fun.;)

ES ,may i add some regarding to the slowpoked Dwarven Bombards. It's cool when you used a Khamsin Peacekeeper's force march to fasten their pace in the battlefield. I once used dwarves and 1 thing I complain about is their speed.Thank good they made 1 fig to equalize. But still Gunners are the coolest it's not because they are over rated. Its because they are versatile.

Troggs and Throtle worms are The guys.

Others that get litle or no use:

Amotep gunner *** : heheh.

Slasher *** : They are niiice.. at least, in my hands they are e@a killers.

Spine Suicker: low def but good dial and nice stats

Bakus: you cant go wrong with this guy..

I suppose you're right. I put them on the list because where I live, I am the only person out of about 11 players that I think has EVER fielded throttle worms, but on the realms they do seem to get a lot of credit.

I like light cavaliers. Very glass jawed but some cheap fast charge/WM.

If the EL had a forced march figure I'd use troll brawlers and living elementals more. But they don't :(