right, gotcha. thanks for the correction swan.

Yes net_runner. d4's are Huge

Yes, D4's have tons of advantages -- much higher chance of aceing being the primary. And their cost, especially for red and black d4's, seems quite representative.

The downside, however, is even more massive. The chance of bad mojo becomes higher and higher with each progressive D4 you add. The lack of ability to add to your attack value with anything significant also comes into play, as does the prelevance of body armor and its ability to negate dice after the hit is successful.

Speaking of which: I think the numbers are for the scenario/campaign games. That is something I noticed -- the letter of the law right now says that shields automatically reduce damage from any dice of that color. Of course, the fact that the rules are written for one on one duels, and Kellan doesn't have anything above a D6 notwithstanding. ;)


Anyways.. I consider D4's the ultimate gamble when you start adding more than, say, 2. After all, you need standard dice to actually -hit- for those ace effects to come into play. And hitting the opponent is what those d8's, d10's, and d12's are for..


Cuz I promise you.. In Shadowrun proper, if you don't hit your opponent, that 18 Deadly damage of the Panther Assault Cannon don't mean anything but a busted out wall behind your target.

Athenor, who can't believe he actually had to look up the PAC's damage code. ;)

Another quick question, if i roll a d6 and two d4s, and everything comes up as a 3, bad mojo wipes out all the dice right?

Yes count, And Athenor is right mojo sucks and you the chance's of mojo is high.but remember this if I throw three red d4's and one green d4 you cant get bad mojo on ace's. and out of those for dice I green ace "which is called shot" and I get two red ace's out of three and I hit with the last dice I can do a ton of damage and put it anywhere I want, Guess what take that to the head.Ive had 8 damage done to me the very first time we were able to reach one and other. 24 inch range and this combo is STRONG to beat. sorry for the long winded post. :)

That ain't long winded, trust me.

I would point out, however -- if all the dice there ace (all 3 reds and the green), then all you have to beat your opponent's defense + dodge is your attack value...

Which means all it would take is 1 white dice for your opponent and blam, yer attack does nil.


Them's the risks, them's the rewards. Always keep that in mind.. I'd go for the sure thing over the uber-spectacular blast.

Athenor

But you cant block an ace. so they can throw 100 white d20's it does not matter. Even so I throw a green d6 or d4 which has been done. If i dont ace on that I can add that to my total to hit. Aces count as zero for all rolls, but they do have special effects when rolled on an attack. Set any aces aside; you’ll need them later,Determine ace effects. Every ace rolled on an attack deals 1 click of damage in addition to having one special effect. Ace special effects are as follows.so you see ace's are to be feared nothing can stop it

You are right.. but you still need to hit. That's my only point. ;)

Athenor

Every ace rolled on an attack deals 1 click of damage in addition to having one special effect

Yes, you have said this about 4 times now.

But that is the -second- half of the attack, the damage resolution. To-hit is the first part.. and in To-hit, aces are a MASSIVE liability. As you have said, they are considered a roll of 0, and bad mojo doesn't cancel 'em out.

If you are loading yourself up with D4's, then you are not going to be able to hit high-defense targets (like, say, Lothan with 6 yellow and white dice in his pool), and furthermore your chances of bad mojo occuring rise.

This is the trick of the game.. and why it is short-sighted to rely on aces as your winning strategy.

Athenor

chances of bad mojo occuring rise. not when you throw aces. after the players throw dice you look for bad karma,then check for aces if any set them "aside" youll need them for "later" then determine final attack and defence valuesonce bad karma dice have been returned to your figure's cup and the aces have been put "aside",see it's "aside"see then you add the remaining dice to your total if any if you then have a higher attack value then your opp those dice hit.Remember this is not counting ace's yet,then compare,check for shields,remove blocked dice,calculate damage, and last determine ace effects every ace rolled on an attack deals 1 clix of damage in addition to having one special effect.

Athenor,

The problem here is how the attack action is written up. In it it states that any dice that roll an Ace does one point of damage in addition to their special ability. This part of the resolutoin is outside the determing whether or not you hit, hence it does not matter if you hit or not, by how the rules are written the ace ALWAYS does its damage. That's the issue here. By how the rules are written you do not have to have a succesful attack for the Ace to take effect. That's the bonus of lots of D4's. Who cares about bad Karma, Aces are immune to it and with each Ace you get dual effects. With a 1 in 4 chance of getting a hit I will happily always roll D4's over any other die out there.

Swan

Nice job Swan.

Okay, I see your point -- because Aces are in their own section, they do not obey the rules of calculating damage.

I see the expense now, although I have a feeling that'll be errattaed. The bullet's gotta hit for anything to happen -- at least, that's how Shadowrun's always been.

Athenor

Edit: also by the rules, you wouldn't get Kellan's +1 on red dice for aces, only on a successful attack that has a red dice still present.

You want a down side to this? Heres one lets say I roll no ace's and i get bad mojo or just 2's and 3's and my opp roll's a d10 and two d6's we compare totals there is a real good chance I dont hit.Because I'm only useing low dice compared to his high ones.