I understand the effect you're trying to achieve, I'm just saying I think you're going about it the wrong way. I've no problem with an APM-armed Soli damaging a big, heavily armored Assault, I just don't think that there's no way it should be able to do 9 damage to it. Maybe 3-4 tops, but no way 9. Conversely, I think that the big, heavily armored Assault should have a heck of a time getting a hit in on that Soli, but if it does the Soli had better be left a smoking pile of twisted metal or something's seriously wrong.

Fundamentally, I like the notion of "class modifiers." I think it goes a long way to resolving some of the imbalance in the game. I'm just concerned that if you're focusing on adjusting defense values, rather than on adjusting damage increments, you're going to end up in a worse situation than we had when we started.

I agree. One of the key things that makes MW attractive to me is the combined arms aspect. I understand and expect 'mechs to be the "kings" of that battlefield, but they shouldn't be the sole focus of the game. And when the adjustments start rendering vehicles and infantry even less attractive than they already are (which is a serious problem already) I believe you've taken decisive a step in wrong direction.

That's one possibility. Another would be to adjust formation firing so that it provides *BOTH* an AV and damage bonus (or, alternately, make it selectable -- each additional unit in the formation provides *either* +2 attack -or- +1 damage). I also think there's some potential in reducing the number of required units in a firing formation down to just two (however, I don't think raising the cap above five would be wise).

OK so since people like to compare WK mechs to CBT I'll tell you in CBT the BR soli is impossible to even have w/ its current stats. A Soli is what, 25 tons? Then its weapons are what looks to be a PPC, and either 3 med lasers or 3 sml Lasers. Then to Achieve its 14 Base speed someone said WK adds 2 to the CBT speed so the Soli would need a 12 Walk speed. Then to have a nice heat dial like it has it would have to have like 20 some odd Double heatsinks. I Know for a fact that theres no way in H311 you can fit all that into a 25 tonner. This Soli in MW should have a Heat dial along the lines of Ken Roo's mixed w/ The HD Helstar, then it's Def wouldnt be 20 and even if it was it would be to loaded down w/ heatsinks to have Evade. HOwever, I do agree that the Lights should be harder to hit and thats why they usually in MW AOD are packing Evade and Decoy, but there should be no way in gods green earth that that same light is able total your Big assault in 1 shot, you just cant get weapons that do that much dmg in such a short amount of time into a light mech. I know WK was tryin to make lights and mediums better fighters but since when do you use your Lights to fight?? APM has given the Lights the Jobs of your Assaults except for like 3/4ths the price, then you can get like 3 lights for every big boy you can get. APM either shouldnt have been brought in or it shouldnt have been able to do that kind of dmg. PLus, its price is just a bit to cheap for what it does. I know if a player made a custom card like APM theyd get flamed to kingdom come and back again. Also just how does Cont Fire mode work?? Ive also looked at Hyperlaser and made my own version of it, except mine has a max range of 18 and it lowered the dmg. Im going to knock off the dmg restriction but keep the range limit. Hyperlaser gives you Half range and Half Dmg bonus for a whole killer overwhelming 19pts.....My gear im going to put at 15Pts. Lights should have Gear that ups speed, keeps em from bein Targeted, better Defensive gear, they are scouts for the love of nothing, not your front line Assault mech. At any rate it shoulda been the Assaults w/ gear that upped dmg as if only a little.

I like this idea here. I always found it wierd how you get more troops firing but it only ups you chance to hit, I always figured it shoulda upped your Dmg as if only by 1. +1 Av +1 Dmg Value, thatd be cool. It would certainly make some infantry kinda nasty. However, put a Cap to the Dmg bonus of +2, infantry that start hittin like Heaives would be uhh...not cool.

want a combo that hits alot, fast and Hard??

Jule Julz in "Jack" w/ BAP
Kisho in "Nebula" w/ Cont Fire Mode
Gonzalo in "War" w/ Cont Fire Mode
SW Padilla Arty Tank
Merc MRBC FP
750 Iif I can remeber right, or else a 900...1 of the 2.

you manuver Kolchak close to your target, then use Kisho's moves to get in teh target's rear. That would then give Kisho a 14AV (His +1 then Bap
s +1 +2 for Rear, then Jule's subtracts 1 from the targets Def, in a sense giving Kisho 15AV!!! crazy. Then you go ape w/ cont fire mode...3-6-9 dmg. Then wash rinse and repeat w/ Gonzalo 3-6-9...dead mech.

I think this army was a 750, my dad played it against my modded Mad Cat and killed the stupid thing in like the first 3 turns of the game, then again i did get stupid w/ it. 1 Mech armies get munched, Tho I must say my Modded HUitz tank did punch out some lead and did some dmg to a a few mechs. I did also forget to use my modded Half-Decoy gear I had on my Mad Cat, in every game I put that on my Mad Cat i never rolled for it except 1ce where it worked but I got hit anyway.

Ive play tested my supposed overpowering Modded mechs, no they actually fit in just fine, they are a bit tough to beat due to their stable Defense but they drop like any otehr mech, infact I played about 5-6 games w/ my Thor and he died or got severly damaged in all of them, except one my Bro charged right at me and I just gunned him down. I didnt play my Daishi mods yet tho, prolly wont till I get doubles of the mechs to repaint em. my Vulture is prolly my meanest mech w/ its Streaks and EC, 22 Def and 10 range. I know my units are costly. Played a 900 had 3 mechs and that was it.

One of the things Mechafetish and I accidentally left out when this thread went to post was the addition of an attack modifier in the "class modifiers". I think this would go along way in addressing your concerns. Essentially, this would supersede the attack cap I mentioned in the first post. Units attacking a higher class would gain a +1 to their av for each class modifier. So an infantry attacking an assault mech would have a +5 to its AV, a light mech attacking an assault mech would have a +3. This would make infantry, vehicles and light mechs very accurate but still render marginal to no damage to an assault mech due to the damage modifier.

Given the proposal above we could just allow formation firing outside of base contact and add the additional +1 dmg and +1 AV per additional unit for a maximum of five units. I'm not sure the same should be done for vehicles though. Allowing a formation of 5 vehicles might be a step back rather than forward so were thinking of limiting vehicle formations to 3 instead of five. A good idea that was brought up in the discussion was the possible ability of units to assault while in formation (subject to existing pushing rules).

One of the things Mechafetish and I accidentally left out when this thread went to post was the addition of an attack modifier in the "class modifiers". I think this would go along way in addressing your concerns. Essentially, this would supersede the attack cap I mentioned in the first post. Units attacking a higher class would gain a +1 to their av for each class modifier. So an infantry attacking an assault mech would have a +5 to its AV, a light mech attacking an assault mech would have a +3. This would make infantry, vehicles and light mechs very accurate but still render marginal to no damage to an assault mech due to the damage modifier.

Given the proposal above we could just allow formation firing outside of base contact and add the additional +1 dmg and +1 AV per additional unit for a maximum of five units. I'm not sure the same should be done for vehicles though. Allowing a formation of 5 vehicles might be a step back rather than forward so were thinking of limiting vehicle formations to 3 instead of five. A good idea that was brought up in the discussion was the possible ability of units to assault while in formation (subject to existing pushing rules).

Oops. Double post.

Another possible idea given in by Mechafetish in our discussions would be to allow infantry to move up to full printed speed before participating in a formation. Such infantry formations would add a positive av modifier of 1 with a maximum formation of 5 units. Vehicles could do the same with a maximum av modifier of +2 but limits formations to 3 cap. In addition pushing may be allowed continuously without adding a second order token but pushing units still take a click of pushing damage.

This sounds good to me as an Assault mech could enlist additional units in taking down those pesky RHD lights and would go far in contributing to players fielding balanced forces.

Hi Gents just posting our semi-final revisions to the KoB format. Please note that infantry movement 13a and 13b are still up for discussion prior to implementation or maybe a combination of both. We need help playtesting this and would love to hear any comments you may have after trying it. The "paint" order and smart arty are new additions and we'd like to hear your comments on those as well.

Many thanks!

MechWarrior: Kings of the Battlefield

1.Class modifier: There are 7 classes: infantry, vehicle, light, medium, heavy, assault and colossal. If attacking a heavier class, count the number of classes between the two units and subtract that total number from your damage. (eq. a light attacking a heavy mech would count medium and heavy resulting in a class modifier and damage reduction of 2.) If attacking a lighter class unit, count the number of class modifiers and add that to your damage and the targets defense. (eq. a heavy attacking a light would count from medium to light, thereby adding 2 to its damage value and 2 to the targets defense.)

Units attacking a higher class gain a +1 to their av for each class modifier. So an infantry attacking an assault mech would have a +5 to its AV, a light mech attacking an assault mech would have a +3. This would make infantry, vehicles and light mechs very accurate but still render marginal to no damage to an assault mech due to the damage modifier.

2. Full unretirement: All units can be played. Pre AOD non unique units may utilize "named" pilot and gear. Unique pre AOD units may utilize generic pilots and gear.

3. The following factions are considered as Mega-houses and may cross utilize pilots and or faction specific gear and faction prides. Recruit costs within a house are considered waived. Gunslingers may still be recruited by different houses at standard cost.
Republic of the Sphere + Highlanders
House Kurita + Dragons Fury
House Davion + Swordsworn
House Steiner + Stormhammers
Clan Wolf + Steel Wolves + Wolf Hunters
Clan Nova Cat + Spirit Cats
Bansons Raiders
House Liao
Clan Jade Falcon
Clan Ghost Bear
Gunslingers + Comstar + Wolf Dragoons + Kell Hounds + Eridani Light Horse

All merc regiments listed with Comstar and gunslingers recruit to the Comstar Faction for free.

Comstar has the following faction pride: At the begining of an opponents turn choose a Comstar unit or a unit friendly to you. It gains "Lure" for that turn.

4.KoB is Faction Pure and allows only "Mercenary/Gunslinger" units to be utilized in a faction pure army. Planetary conditions are drawn and disseminated before army construction. Mission Cards are allowed. Situational Alliances are not allowed.

5.Special Equipment Changes:

Grapple adds +1 to the breakaway roll instead of its normal ability

Homing Beacon and TSEMP may now be used in an Assault Order:

Homing Beacon: Firing unit gets +2 for the attack. If the attack succeeds, until the end of your turn all friendly units attacking this target gain +2 to their attack values.

TSEMP: adds 1 token and 1 heat (for targets without a token) or +2 heat (for targets with a token) to the target in addition to damage caused by the attack.

Full Strike - now adds 2" to melee range in addition to its regular benefits.

Camouflage: Adds +1 to defense outside of hindering in addition to its normal benefits.

Artemis Fire control may now be used on multiple targets and deals 1 additional point of damage to each unit successfully hit by an attacker or its normal ability.

Electronic Camouflage - will treat hindering terrain as blocking in terms of being targeted in addition to its normal benefits.

Repair - black markers will require 3 clicks of repair (2 clicks for clan mechs) to get passed instead of being impassable.

6.Mechs without a melee symbol on their dial will do only half damage rounded down when making close combat attacks.

7.Energy does full damage against infantry

8.Elevated Terrain is allowable and gains +1 defense against units not in elevated terrain. but VTOLs in flight still gain a +1 to defense against units in Elevated Terrain. Deep water is still not allowed.

9.Artillery only affects VTOLs at NOE but does not affect Aqua units in water unless center dot falls under the POG. Aquatic units in water gain -1 to damage dealt to them.

10.Units breaking away that fail the dice roll may still break away at half speed. Breakaway rolls are still the same. Units do not need to breakaway from Vehicles or VTOLs.

11.Paint order (Infantry): a single infantry in range of a single target may perform a "paint" order. Upon choosing a single target and declaring a paint order. You must choose a single vehicle/VTOL or mech unit friendly to the unit performing the paint order. That Vehicle/VTOL or mech unit gets a +1 AV and +1 dmg when attacking that target for that turn only.

Paint order (VTOL):a single VTOL in range of a single target may perform a "paint" order. Upon choosing a single target and declaring a paint order. You must choose a single mech/vehicle/VTOL friendly to the unit performing the paint order. That unit gets a +2 AV and +1 dmg when attacking that target for that turn only.

12.Smart Artillery:a single unit witin firing range of a pog may "paint" a pog adding +1 AV (for infantry) or +2 AV (for vehicles and VTOLs) to the firers attack value.

13a.Infantry and vehicles use standard AOD rules but do not take pushing damage and are not limited to two tokens but recieve a -1AV,-2MV and -1DV for each token on them. Resting only clears two tokens.

OR

13b.Infantry and Vehicle movements:

Infantry and vehicles no longer take pushing damage but must automatically "rest" a turn when they have 2 tokens:

Infantry:
2 - token moves:
Move full printed speed and close combat order
Move 1/2 printed speed and ranged combat order
Move 1/2 printed speed and formation fire
Move 1/2 printed speed and paint a target
Move 2X printed speed

1 - token moves:
move printed speed
paint target
combat order (ranged or melee)
formation fire
Breakaway

Infantry may participate in a formation (max of 5) with each non-firing unit adding +1 AV

Vehicles:
2 - token moves:
Move 1/2 printed speed and ranged combat order
Move 1/2 printed speed and formation fire
Move 2X printed speed

1 - token moves:
move printed speed
ranged combat order
formation fire
Breakaway

Vehicles may participate in a formation (max of 3) with each non-firing unit adding +1 AV and +1 dmg

14.Unbased units with circular bases may make a free spin prior to a ranged combat order.

Issue with these. I assume you mean grapple means the opponent needs one more to break away on a roll instead of gets +1 on the break away roll. So 'mechs would fail to break on a 1-3, vehicles and infantry on 1-4.

Homing beacon: Um? Why should the firing unit get +2 to it's attack, as homing beacon does nothing for the unit until it actually hits and attaches to the opposing units. If you leave everything the way it is now with, except allow it to be used on the assault and only friendly units using ballistic values to attack to get +2 to their attacks it would be much more balanced. By all means I'd LOVE the way you have it worded right now as a Clan Wolf player, then I could have my Skadi's pop over a building and Homing beacon something then follow suit with several CW Carnivores or WH Kelswa's or "Fell" Warwolf, who would now have an effective 15 attack on his starting click when firing, not to mention having improved targeting. (9 base +2 from pilot, +2 from homing beacon being fired, +2 from him USING homing beacon himself) Also please note homing beacon actually requires a munition to have a guidance system in order for it to work, meaning SRMs, LRMs, and MMLs, possibly ATMs though I would have to look into that one. Sorry folks PPC's don't track the target like they do in 'mech assault, also it is a bit weird that a gauss slug could use it...

Artemis V FCS: I can see multiple units, however I'd actually require the unit to score at least one damage to the target in order for it to recieve the +1 damage modifier. "Hammerfall" Atlas with Artemis V anyone? Yes let him be able to use it against four targets. Effectively he now has a 10 damage and he doesn't even have to put a single point of his 'normal' damage into any of the other targets in order to deal one damage to them. I always have found how you split damage after you 'hit' to be wonky.

Presicely, Sir. I wouldn't mind too much either if we lowered the general escape roll failure to 1 for mechs and 1-2 for vehicles and infantry.

I like the idea of waiving the +2 to the initial attack, Sir. That would make it more balanced. I'd like to think though (for the sake of fairness) that homing beacon aids the target acquisition of friendly units rather than guiding the projectiles or energy..uhm waves that they fire. Im not sure, Im not into the fluff too much..

I'm good with this as well, sir. Printed damage must be assigned to a particular unit prior to assigning damage modifiers such as Artemis and Class modifiers. No damage modifiers may be assigned to a unit receiving no damage. So if Hammerfall with Artemis wanted to target 4 infantry, on a succesful attack, he could assign 1 dmg to two of them and 2 dmg to the other two. Then Artemis would kick in assigning 1 dmg to each. Finally the class modifier would assign another 5 dmg to each infantry, thats a total of 7,7,8 and 8 dmg thereby hurrying them to meet their maker.

On second thought, what if we lowered breakaway failure to 1 for mechs, 1-2 for vehicles and 1-3 for infantry?

Only thing with that though is it detracts from 'mechs with evade and jump jets, who have that advantage over others. I have really thought that 'mechs or vehicles with grapple a little silly and thought that infantry really should be the only ones who should have it and even then it should be representing a swarm attack. Where if the unit is a mech or vehicle and they fail a break away they can still move but the infantry follows with them. On 'mechs and vehicles I thought blue on energy should be something along the lines of "Plasma Gun/Cannon" but not the silly card one that allows energy to deal full damage to an infantry but more along the lines of it makes the energy attack of that unit cause a heat (as thats what it does) but thats just me.

Glad to see that you have to score damage in order to have the equipment kick in, and I'd go as far as making it where the target has to be assigned damage in order for a critical hit to score +1 damage against the target too.

As for homing beacon giving +2 to everything just be aware that it makes anything that has Pulse or PPC cap that much more accurate and therefore deadly if someone gets some homing beacon shots off.

Thanks for the input, sir. I would suggest that units with Jump Jets or Evade be given an extra roll for breakaway. Given that we wanted to make general and necessarily uncomplicated changes to the SEs, we had to come up with a general text that fit all units sporting the equipment.

I'd classify Critical damage as a damage modifier and thus falls under the "assign damage before assigning damage modifiers" rule.

I think this is nerfed enough for playability but just in case, we could give the +2 AV only to units that began the turn in range (whether blocked or hindered) in range of the target. Anything but the cheesy line of sight ability.