I get what you're saying, erick, but I don't think it's a problem. Yeah, you can play a lot of little plot twists early on, but it's balanced out by the fact that they won't (or shouldn't) be as powerful as the higher costed ones.

As for the colors, I don't think that's very important either. I think it's easy enough to remember that characters-equipment cost you and locations-plot twists don't.

JoFo is right - the higher value plot twists will be more powerful. As I mentioned earlier - the balance will be there. The cost system is different, yes, but in the end it will be no less balanced than a game like Magic, where one could argue that you could put a dozen one mana spells in your deck instead of two or three high-cost spells, but a) it would eat up a LOT of deck space, and b) if the higher cost spells make your lower cost spells useless then it defeats the purpose of stocking up on the smaller spells.

As for the build scenario you put forth - first off, your resources only reset at the end of turn. As well, if you had a card or effect that allowed you to play a character during your attack pahse it would still cost a part of your resource pool, unless there was card text that said otherwise...

Cheers!
-Ben =)

erick, concerning your sneak attack character scenario, I would say that if you had used your five resource points for the turn you could not play the character during the attack phase unless it had zero cost.

If the card had a cost and you had used up your resources, you'd have to wait until the next turn to play it.

yeah i gotta say erick that i dont really see your problems with the threshold/cost mechanic. i see that it can be very balanced, you can use all your resource to bring down charachters and equipment, and then in combat you can use that very same resource pool to play plot twist and locations. this makes your resources more efficiat than magic, where everything costed the same, bacially you can get twice as many cards in play using the same amount of fuel cards.

kergi and jofo:
There is a difference between cost and threshold. One dozen mana spells under the threshold system would only take 1 mana, so you could play them all the first turn. This is the only real problem I have with threshold type resourcing.

And as I said, it depends on the effects of the cards, but I think they are going to have a problem making 3s and 4s much more powerfuls than 1s or 2s... but that's my opinion.

jack:
In theory yes... but, since VS doesn't use a tapping mechanic to specify how much you used, how can you keep track? In later rounds it would be confusing.

cyke:
I agree with you... I just don't agree with the way VS implemented it. And during the Attack phase, you actually get more than just the number of resources, you can play as many cards as you want as long as they are under the threshold.

All:
I don't have too much of a problem with the threshold mechanic of resources although it will be reminiscent of YGO. My biggest gripe is that Resource Cost and Resource Threshold numbers should not be the "same" number. I know it's a technicality but that's just me. I would prefer if the Char/Equip cards said C:2 and the PT/Loc cards said T:2. My other reasoning for this, is later on, they can actually make cards that have both cost and threshold... which would give the game more depth. Your Grey Hulk only cost 1 to play, but you need at least 3 resources to play him (sort of like -- he can come out no problem, but only at night).

Again... just my opinion. But I will go on record saying that there will be some issues regarding cost vs. threshold in this game.

Let me put it this way. This game will be as good as these girls look.

SO GOOD!

Yes, Erick, I'm quite well aware of this. And, as I repeated a couple of times, this is a balanced system where lower point cards will be less powerful and higher point cards will be more powerful. My Magic example was just as a parallel - think of it like this: on your first turn you can play 10 elemental blasts or Fogs if you like but you can't play that Wrath of God until turn 5...

-grin- why don't you wait and check out the cards before making a big presumption like this...? We've already seen a fairly powerful plot twist which is a 6 point card! The lower point PT/location cards we've seen are good but standard - there's nothing like a turn 1 Magic Cylinder or Mirror Force to blow your opponent out of the water...

Since you're playing all of your cards at once - you can only play characters and equpiment during your build phase - how hard is it to keep track of 7 or 8 points for about 30 seconds?


You can play as many PLOT TWISTS and LOCATIONS as you want. And let's not forget that you only draw 2 cards per turn and one is going to be used as a resource. With the 4 cards you start off with in your hand, by turn 6 you have 16 cards - 6 resources = 10 cards remaining, a good chunk of which will have to be characters. Yes, you can activate some of the resources, but many will have been activated during previous turns - how many cards will you actually be able to play in later turns?? It's not as if you'll be laying down a dozen plot twists at a time! You're really only going to be playing a plot twist or two a turn save for rare occasions. And the later the game goes, the fewer cards you'll have left to play... PLUS don't forget your opponent has the opportunity to play as many as you do, which keeps things in balance.

This can be easily solved through card text "You must have at least 3 resources in play to play Grey Hulk". And I highly doubt we'll see more than a few cards like this, if any, ever.

I really don't foresee any problems. It's a fairly simple mechanic: no different than Mana and Spells in Magic - Anyone can tell you right away that a land in Magic doesn't have a cost and can be played one per turn. Or Magic vs Trap cards in YGO - neither have a cost but they have to be played at specific times - and each has a different mechanic...yet I've seen many a 5 yr old who has no trouble with the system =)

Cheers!
-Ben =)

Actually, this was in regards to being able to play a character during your attack phase (like Simian Grunts in MtG). You could lose track during a turn because you wouldn't play it until the next phase... which may be longer than 30 seconds.

For example:

I use points and build, then you use points and build. Then I attack, resolve damage and endurance loss. Then you attack, but you throw down a character card... wait... how many points did you use before? Since we don't tap, there was no way to make sure unless we look at the board and remember which cards were built that phase.

This can happen... shoot... I even forget if I played a land IN MY OWN TURN sometimes when playing MtG.

Of course, if UD never makes a character card like this then it doesn't matter... but if they do... then without tapping... there may be some issues.

Agan... just my opinion. No game is perfect.

I guess I'm the only one who feels there are some flaws in VS.

But then again... it might be because I'm one of the only ones here who's actually played it.

Who ever claimed MtG or Yugi oh had the perfect resource system? It seems to me the brothers landbone and manaflood have taken down many more would be pro's than play mistakes or bad metagaming. This system has the benifit of looking at all the other CCG's out there, Ever, from MtG to overpower, recharge, and other wacky systems. I have faith that the pros that UD has hired to design the system, who have been playtesting and staring at these cards for months now, would not push out a resource mechanic that a person could look at just a handfull of promo cards and unquestionably determine "it sucks". I'm just saying have a little faith in the R & D, they aren't brain dead.

i may not have played a pre-production unfinalized beta version of the Vs system, but i have been playing CCg's for over 15 years, and i believe that one can see if a game will work by looking at its core mechanics.

but i will yield that i have not played the game and cannot judge how it works outside of theoritical discussions. but until i can see for myself and have the ability to dispove my original opinion. i stand by how it looks to me , on paper.

on paper, it is easy to see the distiction of what uses cost and what uses theshold. on paper. each way to spend resource has its seperate step or pahse, so there is no way to cross the two. on paper, it stands to reason, that the lower cost or lower threshold cards will be less effective than the higher priced ones.

on papar, i think this mechanic is sound will do very well. but again, it may not hold when i play it. but i guess i wil have to wait till then.

Wow... some of you guys have to re-read my posts.

I've never said the resource system "sucks". In fact, I was one of the first people who said how good VS is way back on CCGRealms.

I was just stating my one issue on how the resource system is implemented. Will it break the game? NO. Does it make it as bad as YGO? NO. Will it keep millions and millions from playing it? NO.

I have said it and will say it again... VS will be a very successful and popular game. It has depth and strategy unparalleled by any other comic-based CCG (well... I never played WS but Kergi is better to verify that).

But while all you guys are busy saying how much you love this game based on the "rules" and cards scans... I have every right to state my reservations which I feel are not unfounded because I actually played it (a version that is closer to the final game than a "pre-production unfinalized beta version").

Remember guys... MtG has evolved over the years (and it's only been 11 or 12 so I'm not sure what CCG cyke was playing 15 years ago) and it has had its fair share of rule mods, errata and broken cards. This is just one of those things that I think may cause some issues. It's not going to kill VS... not by a long shot... I'm just not a fan of threshold based resources... especially if it's not used that way throughout all phases of the game.

And again... I may be totally off-base here... but that's why it's my opinion and not fact. I just find it funny that I'm the only one on all the different boards who actually has a criticism about VS.

of course you are intitled to your own opinion, i never said that you thought the game would suck. i was just giving a counter-point to your statement, that one had to actually play a game to understand and judge its mechanics.

i do see why you would feel how you do. i just don't agree with it.. yet.

and i too have my own issues with some of the mechanics, such as i am not sure if i like the fact that everytime a charachter gets stunned, you take the cost as endurance loss. to me that seems like overkill. however i still think that this gamer wil do very well, and can't wait to play it.

cyke:

It's all good, it was WarMachine's post that I was referencing the "sucks" comment to.

When I played, I don't remember taking endurance loss for the Stunned character, only breakthrough damage. When it got KO'ed is when I took endurance loss for the character cost. They may have changed this since or it may have been demoed incorrectly but I agree that that's a quite a bit of damage to take.

But playing it was actually why I came up with my issue. During the attack phase, I think it was only turn 2 or something, the guy attacked me and I pumped my character up with a 2 cost card. Then he responded with his own 2 cost card, then I asked if I could still play something that was 2 cost and he said yes, so upturned one of my face down plot twists that had a 2 cost and pumped again beating him. He was surprised that I had that card in my resource row but I was surprised that I was able to play 4 costs for only 2 resources, especially after I had just spent 2 points on building a character in the previous phase (which meant I got 6 pts out of 2 resources).

It's good in a way that it makes the game play fast, but it might be too fast (as the demo guy said, most games were averaging 7 turns... ours went 7 or 8).

Regardless... I will be selling and buying this stuff in quantity so I don't think UD minds a little criticism from me.

i think the idea of the resource and theshold mechanic is to make the game fast, and i like that, but when you add that stunned charachter equal endurance loss and it is too fast for me. but i guess i will have to see when it is released.

and its cool, erick, i love a good debate as long it stays civil and inteligent. but how often do you see that?

Hey guys,

This comes from Danny Mandel, one of the game's designers. He's busy designing DC - so he asked me to post it for him:

There is a definite early, middle, and late game in Marvel, and the threshold cost system keeps the more powerful effects from happening too early and unbalancing the game. Also keep in mind that the threshold system is just the basic costing on a card. Many of the more powerful plot twists and locations are so good that they warrant an additional cost such as discarding a card from your hand, paying endurance, or exhausting a character you control.

And remember that first and foremost this is a super-hero game. Everything else is built around the characters. Every other card type (equipment, locations, plot twists) exists to support your characters - not to take their place. There are no “character-less” decks in Marvel.

As far as being able to tell the difference between resource and threshold costs, while it wasn’t implemented on the demo cards, resource costs are shown in gold, threshold is shown in silver. You can see it on the images on the front page of the Vs Realms site.

By the way, keep asking questions on the FAQ post. We should have new answers this week.