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as a judge issues of dispute are to decided by the judge.
in cases where there is ambiguity, the judges decision is final.
i don't waste too much time arguing with a judge. i make my case, and if i disagree, i state that i disagree, but i move on.
should these kinds of things occur in my events, as the judge, i will make the calls that i feel are correct. if this is unfortunately inconsistent with other judges rulings, then it is inconsistent. but i will not make the same bad decision that some one else makes just because they made a bad decision.
the point that my opponent is to be held accountable for his actions establishes that he/she is to be aware of their effects more than i should, as they have longer to see their cards, being that they are the player with the cards in hand. they are the one that put the card in their deck. they are the one that should know when they can play their own cards.
we are talking about a professional level event.
it is not to be expected that the player who made a deck doesn't know what his own cards do.
it is however acceptible and makes more sense to not know what your opponents cards do.
you wanna say that i should know what my opponents cards do?
fine.
then here is my solution.
if an opponent makes a misplay like playing a card with loyalty when they were not able to, ok.
if the other player doesn't catch the mistake immediately, then that player should recieve a warning and then the other player should get an automatic loss.
this way, if there is an issue of a player trying to cheat by allowing his opponent to make these kinds of plays in order to get his opponents losses, then this way, if that player does it again it is already noted, and it doesn't unfairly punish a player while giving his opponent an unfair advantage in a game.
this would greatly increase the likelihood of a player paying closer attention to his own cards and not causing this kind of situation to even occur to begin with.
this would balance out that issue that so many of you keep championing that both players are responsible.
It is more fair to allow a game to continue in a damaged game state in which both players still have the ability to play it out then give an automatic game loss.
You don't seem to understand that it's much easier to cheat the system if you know what actions (or actually lack of) will result in an auto loss for your opponent. Whereas it's harder to cheat knowing that unless you are familiar with your opponent's cards, you may lose the game so it forces you to be more vigilant.
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we are talking about a professional level event.
it is not to be expected that the player who made a deck doesn't know what his own cards do.
it is however acceptible and makes more sense to not know what your opponents cards do.
So it's okay not to know what your opponent cards do? If this is your idea of how to play this game professionally, I have bad news for you. All high-level players will ALWAYS know what EVERY card does no matter who is playing it.
Your system is worse than the current one. There is no way to know if a player intentionally allowed an illegal play. He could just use your excuse "I didn't know I had to know my opponent's cards" and get away with it. Believe me, it's much easier to catch people who are trying to play things illegally (since it is their card) then it is to catch people allowing illegal plays to get an auto-loss.
Under the current system, it makes ALL players more vigilant, which is how it should be. Under your system, it creates loopholes that people can abuse and feign "unfamiliarity". It just doesn't work the way you want it to.
under 'my system' players are penalized more for not knowing their own cards, which is how it should be.
that is the bottom line here.
the current system is allowing for the possiblity that an accident can happen and it is finding in favor of the player that made the mistake.
and that is not in any way right.
to take the stand and say that 'well, since no one caught it when it happened i guess the illegal play stands.' is totally inappropriate.
and under 'my system, a player could potentially cheat, but they'd only get away with it once.
where as under the current system it could be repeated many times and not once get penalized for it.
do you see that?
if it shouldn't get caught, they got away with it, that is a constant between both systems.
if it gets caught immediately, there is no repercussion either. and the cheater may continue to try to do it for the rest of the day.
if it is caught later, by the current system, both players get warnings, but the cheater gets away with it. costing one player a game most likely. then that player may not do it again or they may still try to see who they can get it by. this system will punish the cheater only if they cheat again and get caught, where as the opponent will get penalized for an opponent making a mistake in a future game as well. this system is designed to prevent players from trying to abuse the system by allowing an opponent to take an illegal action and then later make that player lose to technicalities.
by 'my system', however, the cheater is penalized promptly for cheating and the opponent gets a warning. this way, if that opponent does the same thing again later on and allows an opponent to take an illegal action and then calls them on it after the fact, that player gets his auto loss, as it is now a pattern.
cheating in game doesn't need a pattern to establish a violation.
cheating by trying to allow an opponent to take illegal actions however must be established by pattern.
this way it is clear that the player who misplayed will not be given any unfair advantages in the course of the game, and the the opponent cannot cheat the system, by getting his opponents game losses.
this puts more of the pressure on the player to monitor his own cards (as it should be) while offering a fair punishment system to discourage cheating.
the current system is finding in favor of the perpetrator and not the 'victim'.
and you are the victim if an opponent's action is the source of this entire situation.
if i know that i can get away with a misplay if my opponent doesn't catch it in time, and i know that if i get desperate, i can try to slip one by my opponent. if he catches it, then no big deal. if he catches it later then all i get is a warning, and maybe a game win.
or
if i know that if i make a misplay i can get a game loss, and my opponent will just get a warningif i get desperate, and i try to cheat, i can try to slip it by my opponent, but if he catches it immediately, nothing happens, but if he cathes it later i get an automatic loss.
which one seems like a better way to encourage players to pay attention to their own cards?
and if players paid more attention to their own cards this would be less of an issue.
and not being consciously aware of what a card does at a specific moment is not the same as playing a card illegally.
as such they should not carry the same penalty.
let the punishment fit the crime.
cheating should come with a game loss.
especially when it can not simply be fixed.
establishing cheating should be easy enough: if you take an action you are not allowed to take, it is cheating, accidental or not.
not stopping an illegal action is not the same as taking an illegal action, and they shouldn't even be viewed as the same thing.
but since there is the potential for players to cheat using this system, too, the provision should exist to punish a player that repeatedly allows an opponent to take illegal actions and then calls a judge later.
don't you understand that if i was going to call a judge to get an opponent a game loss for making a misplay and then catching it later, i'd need my opponent to make a misplay first?
if my opponent was more alert to his own cards and didn't make a misplay to begin with there would be nothing for me to report, right?
and that is why 'my system' is the better system.
under the current system it is easier for a player to cheat, and get away with it.
under 'my system', it becomes almost impossible for a player to get away with it.
Originally posted by tchalla where as under the current system it could be repeated many times and not once get penalized for it.
do you see that?
I think you need to read the Tournament Penalty Guidelines more.
That comment indicates that you have not judged many high level events or are very familiar with VS judging policy.
Anyone who has repeated the same offense more than once will receive a game loss. And if the behavior continues, it will lead to a DQ.
And... unlike your scenario, it is much easier to determine if the cheating was intentional or not because the player in question owns the card. Whereas in your 'system' the player can always say "Oh... I didn't know Rogue-6 had Loyalty", "Oh Prof-X has loyalty, I got it mixed up with the other one", etc etc.
It's all about a system that does the best to keep both players honest... the current one is better than yours. Infallible? Probably not, but definitely better and MORE fair.
if i know that i can get away with a misplay if my opponent doesn't catch it in time, and i know that if i get desperate, i can try to slip one by my opponent. if he catches it, then no big deal. if he catches it later then all i get is a warning, and maybe a game win.
or
if i know that if i make a misplay i can get a game loss, and my opponent will just get a warningif i get desperate, and i try to cheat, i can try to slip it by my opponent, but if he catches it immediately, nothing happens, but if he cathes it later i get an automatic loss.
Dude... you really have to stop looking at it from one side. The problem here is you were the 'victim' and you can only see it from that angle.
Let's use your same comparison from a different point of view:
If my opponent makes an illegal play and I don't call him on it (and there are many to make in this game), in case I am losing I can just fall back on it and give him an auto-loss.
or
If my opponent makes an illegal play and I don't catch it, I could lose.
Which scenario makes YOU a better a player?
I would much rather see people lose because they weren't familiar with the cards then lose because their opponent was able to finess them into a auto game-loss scenario.
The first one can be remedied by paying more attention to your opponent, the 2nd can turn into a he-said she-said deal.
I'm tired. You will never see the merits of the current system which is fine because everyone else does. You are the minority on this issue and I would hope that eventually you come to realize that the way it is now is the best for the game not just from a rules/judge standpoint but from a gameplay standpoint. You can't argue against the fact that the best way for this game to be played is for both players to know exactly what every card does, no matter who the owner is. Your system allows for a player to be lazy and get rewarded for it... that's not a good thing.
Also, as a note, I can't imagine you would be asked to judge any event if you are not following the UDE tournament policies. And if you are TO for the event, you probably won't get many players after a while (and unhappy players may report the incident to Upper Deck).
I can't say much more about the flaws in your system than erick has, but I don't like reading how you plan to take action into your own hands.
my system simply puts the majority of the responsibility on the player who should be more responsible for his own card play.
to keep saying 'but both players are responsible' just shows that you are not reading my messages. which is fine. since they are intended for ude not you any way. but since you chose to play devil's advocate, i'll play along still too.
my point is that both players cannot be equally responsible and shouldn't be.
think this through:
how far does this responsibility crap stretch?
i cannot be responsible for making my opponent's decisions for him.
i cannot be responsible for my opponent's decisions on what to play.
and as far as the thing about the nothing happens, if my opponent tries to recruit a character illegally, and i say' no, you cannot do that since he has loyalty, my opponent doesn't get a warning, and thus nothing happens,even though my opponent has tried to do it at least once now.
so if it happens to another player later, then what?
they suffer for not catching it sooner since my opponent didn't get away with it against me.
so in yet another game, the cheater tries it again, and gets caught after he has done it, and gets a game loss.
so now 2 other players have suffered to a cheater, that essentially got away with it at first, and the last player gets a free win.
where is that balanced score wise?
under my system, that cheater will reap no benefits from cheating, and his opponent reaps no true reward.
if your opponent cheats they should not be allowed to win.
period.
and playing this game of give them another chance is just not smart.
it sends the message that it's ok to cheat once, or at least as many times as you can get away with.
my system tells players that they are responsible for their own actions outright, as well as to keep an eye on their opponents actions as well.
to not be able to see the justice in this is just not wanting to see it.
to proclaim the fairness in allowing a cheater to prosper even for a moment is cheating their opponent.
why can't you see that this current system is rewarding the cheater, and my system is penalizing the cheater more?
action in to my own hands is a gross misrepresentation.
to make a decision based on a set of circumstances is what a judge is there for, and they are to make an impartial decision.
and while some people think impartial means finding in favor of the cheater, just to show they are being impartial, i think that the cheater is the one who should be penalized more than than the other player.
taking matters in to my own hands...
every time a judge makes a ruling that is exactly what is happening.
and there are plenty of rulings that have been made in direct contrast to each other based on what a judge percieved as fair.
and that is all i plan to do until ude looks beyond a few players that blindly say 'it must be right if ude says it '.
rules change. why? because things are not always 'the best' they could be.
give me one legitimate way that the current system is superior to what i propose.
just 1.
and i'll give you 2 reasons why mine is superior back.
for each reason you can propose.
i don't think cheaters should be allowed to win.
you shouldn't be allowed to win becasue you accidentally cheated.
you shouldn't lose because your opponent cheated.
you shouldn't lose because your opponent cheated.
you shouldn't get a drawback for taking a few moments to realize that your opponent cheated.
your opponent shouldn't get to benefit from cheating.
an opponent shouldn't get to keep cheating until somebody else catches him.
you shouldn't be able to just get your opponent an auto loss without them doing something first.
if a player cheats, then they have done something.
and if they have done something that cannot be undone, they should lose for it.
they played the card. they could have read the card in their control before reading it, and it makes the most sense to assume that if either player was going to read the card, your opponent would. thus if they misplay the card, it is fair to assume their intent was to decieve the opponent.
it is not fair to assume that since a player did not catch a discrepency in an opponent's card the very moment the opponent played the card that they are trying to cheat the opponent in to a loss.
why? because they did not play the card!
the implication that it allows a player to be lazy is just ignorant.
you still have to be paying attention to catch your opponent just the same.
and if an opponent misplays their own card, then they should not benefit from it.
like people playing reign of terror from their resource row and using doom to turn it down to use it again.
i saw it ruled that since the player had been allowed to turn it back down by dooms effect that it was done.
what??!!
an easy fix, since the doom player misplayed, the characters should have been immediately (that same turn still) returned to the table.
the doom player should not have been allowed to change his resource, because the rules do not say that the reign could not be placed in the resource row.
again, why?
because the doom player should have read his own cards.
period.
that really is all there is to it.
the current system allows players to be lazy more than anything else, since they canm try to do things that are illegal, and if they get away with it it's too late, and if they get caught doing it, there is no repercussion, and if it gets caught later, then they still only have to worry if they get caught doing it again later on.
allowing for the opponent to make a misplay as an accident but assuming that the opponent not catching it is cheating is total b.s.
sounds to me like we have more people that are just careless with their own cards that want an out in case they make a mistake.
if you lose because you misplayed a card, it is your own fault.
if you don't know what your own cards do it is your own fault.
this game cannot survive with a system in place that will allow cheaters to prosper.
we play for more than just fun, people. this is for prizes, and money. and if you play sure, you have to be prepared.
part of that is knowing what your opponents cards do.
but an even bigger part is knowing what your own cards do.
thus if you misplay your own cards, it is more logical to assume your intent to cheat than it is to assume your intent to cheat after an opponent's misplay.
how many different ways do i need to say it?
what is so hard for you guys to see about this?
maybe that is where i should be starting:
what part do you not see?
you obviously seem to think the current system is superior.
but it has flaws. i am showing you those flaws.
you are trying to show me flaws in 'my system' but i am showing you why those are not flaws , but instead merits.
and then when your point is lacking, you switch gears.
so explain it to me.
tell me where the current system is superior again.
tell me why those assumptions are more reasonable than the alternative.
tell me how this system is better at preventing and discouraging cheating.
First of all, the current system assumes that misplays are accidental. This is how it should be, because getting accused of cheating is a very serious deal. The Head Judge can use common sense to figure out if cheating is occuring, and if there is no evidence that it was cheating, assume it is not. Innocent until proven guilty.
The current system prevents the easy win of allowing your opponent to misplay a card, and then call a judge. This would happen more than you admit under your system.
I cannot understand what the problem is with reading each card as it is played. Since you are required to pass on a chain for an effect to resolve, you MUST understand that effect.
This system is better for preventing cheating because you have the responcibility to know what is going on, and stopping it yourself.
Your system is worse for preventing cheating because passive cheating is easily accomplished.
Put simply, it is easier to stop cheating in the current system. It is harder to stop it in yours.
i see it as a case of if both of us are to read a card before passing on it, then my opponent cannot ever make a misplay without cheating. since they are to read the card first, right?
so if we are to accept that accidents do happen, then it is acceptable under both systems.
next, we are to assume that the misplay has occured by accident.
ok, then we will assume that the overlooking it has occured by accident as well.
next we are to resolve the issue of the misplay that has occured.
we can either find in favor of the player who initially made the misplay, and continue to give them an unfair advantage or we can find in favor of the other player that accidentally overlooked the misplay as well.
let's see...
if we find in favor of the misplayer, he will maintain his advantage in the current game, possibly cheating his opponent out of a legitimate win, only being penalized later at an indeterminate time if he is caught creating a similar rules infraction again.
or we could find in favor of the other player, who did not misplay his cards, and merey accidentally as well overlooked his opponents misplay until further examination. this could result in the action(s) being backed up or it could result in a game loss to the misplayer.
the first option tells players that they must watch evrything their opponents do, as well as be constantly aware of their own cards and effects. it also tells players that if they are having a tough time in a game they may simply cheat and if they get away with it they get away with it. if they get caught, they only get a warning, so as long as they don't do it again, they are fine for the day. (again, my opponent got 3 warnings in a single match and they were each for something serious, but they were each different infractions.)
the second option sends a much better message that it is important to know what your cards do before you play them. it also prevents a player from abusing the option of cheating all day but using a different cheat each time, thus never getting anything more sever than a slap on the wrist.
i feel better knowing that if my opponent cheats in the first place, there is more that can be done.
my opponent shouldn't be making misplays in the first place.
and when he does, he should not get to benefit from them.
and as far as stopping cheaters, or catching cheaters, there will always be cheaters, of this i have no disagreement.
but if cheaters had to face a stiffer penalty, then they would be fewer and further between, especially with someone else directly watching over them.
innocent until proven guilty is just that.
if you make a misplay, and you don't catch it, you have already lost some of that innocence, right?
if your opponent misses it too, he's lost some of his, right?
so if penalty time comes around, there is no way that both crimes deserve the same punishment ( a warning to them each) one of these people actually shot the clerk, while the other was standing in line behind him.
and this is why i am pushing for more awareness in the players as to how this rule will affect most everyone at some point or another.
because of this, cheaters need tostopped in a more harsh way, not coddled.
and while i am all for remembering that not all convicted are guilty, i am even more for pointing out that not all accused are guilty either.
assuming that the other player is more guilty than the misplayer is wrong.
I hope I get the chance to come to an event run by you Curtis just so I can report you to UDE for breaking tournament policy.
This is totally and utterly ridiculous. You not only ignore logic, but you flaunt your ignorance. You don't lose a game because your opponent "cheated," you lose games because you don't know how to pick up a card, look at it AND READ IT! And then your opponent loses multiple games after because he's a moron who doesn't know what his OWN cards do!
They aren't flaws, they're merits!? Are you crazy!? Making cheating a snap is a MERIT!? A MERIT!? Your arguments are boderline comical. The only reason it's not hilarious is because I know you're serious. The current system creates a responsibility on the part of EVERYone to make sure no one cheats because everyone is punished for this. This requires players to KNOW THE CARDS. This requires you to NOT BE LAZY! This requires you to actually, oh God no! PAY ATTENTION to more than one side of the game!
"Holy hell! We wouldn't want people who can pay attention to their cards AND their opponents cards to have an advantage! NO WAY!"
Don't worry gentle reader, Curtis is here to save you from being held to a higher standard. Now you can be lazy and cheat and BE REWARDED FOR IT! No more having to work hard and put all those letters together to form words that make sentences! In fact forget reading all together. Just don't play any cards at all. wait for a small slip up on a technicality from your opponent and NAIL THE BASTARD TO THE WALL!