Ok, philosophy for the sake of philosophy is great and all, but you're ignoring a lot.

What if a "pro" player has fun playing the game? They're happy.

I don't think you're doing much more than stating the obvious at this point.

Add to that the fact that you're generalizing, and I have no problem rejecting your arguement outright.

wow! that's quite a logic-jump....

while i'm sure that the should-i-be-playing-CCGs question is something that gamers consider from time to time (as i have)... it's ultimately a matter of weighing goals and setting priorities.
maybe top 8'ing a PC is a goal that someone has and they are deriving satisfaction/happiness by making that journey....?

i've seen people fall "victim" to this anti-mainstream-social behaviour...wheather or not CCGs pushed them to it, they would have found another reason/outlet to retreat into.
in a similar vein, i've seen isolationists come out of their shell and begin developing social skills by entering into this hobby and getting a chance to interact with people on a more regular basis.

it's less about the engine used in self-destruction, and more about the underlying factors behind the subconcious desire for it.

This thread is entirely too stupid for people who obviously know so much as to be able to make obscure references and quote really old dead people.

The truth is that if, Stu, people make themselves happy by being the "bestest" and beating "noobs" that's absolutely fine. That doesn't hurt the "noobs" and it doesn't hurt the casual player. The "noob" and casual player have their own goals that can be independently acheived. It only hinders those who have the same "bestest" goals.

And yes, pro-wrestling is different from Jerry Springer. No matter what Vince Russo/McMahon have sometimes tried to pass off as entertainment. You're so focused on myths and stories, try finding a comprehensive summary of Raven's career in ECW for some of the finest story telling ever seen (and more-so not seen) on American television.

As far as the gaming is "teh hurtful to dur mind and stuff," the truth is that if gamers are beings who are socially lacking, happiness deficient and leading a life of less virtuosity... Gaming is an effect not a cause. Just like violent media is not a cause of violent behavior but an effect of a violent world and a need for an outlet for violent thoughts and feelings.

Along with most arguements of virtue I find lacking, you define virtue as so weak that a ####ing game can destroy it. Your virtue and convictions therefore must not hold very strong in the face of arguement. Therefore they aren't worth arguing. Let alone giving up a greatly enjoyed hobby for.

-Mike

EDIT: Typo's begone.

RanmaSolo wins yet another thread!

Playing VS. is not really getting you anywhere close to being on the road to true happiness. First, I really think you have to get in touch with your own feelings and live life for a little while. Helping others is also cool. I mean, how many of us are going to be thinking about VS. on our deathbed? We'll probably be thinking of something along the lines of family and friends instead, and the good times we shared with them.....

I find that societies reaction to gamers is the real reason that they (we?) can be perceived as socially lacking.

On the other hand, perhaps interaction within the gaming community counteracts this.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that non-gamers perceive gamers as lonely, friendless beings is because gamers only really hang out with each other and usually out of the way of those who wouldn't understand thier pastimes.

On another subject, I think that it's unfair to say that playing heroes makes you "virtuous" and playing villains makes you "immoral". All the best villains aren't really bad, they simply have goals or methods that conflict with what society percieves as good.

For example, Dr Doom wants to make the world a better place. But he wants to do so by becoming its dictator, which many would see as wrong.

In the end, its up to the individual to decide what is good and what is bad, and then adhere to those standards. That, my friends is happiness.

Sort of...

Villains of course want to make the world a better place. They want to "purify" it. Dr. Doom was created in the vain of Stalin, Hussein, and Hitler. Those three were all beloved by some, but unlike Lincoln or Ghandi, they believed society had to be "purged" to be good. And well, they were wrong.

Of course people have fun playing Vs. It's pleasurable. Many, many things in life are pleasurable. But what if something is pleasurable and destructive? Does it then lead to happiness? The arguments seem to say no.

People become addicted to sex, drugs (and rock and roll! j/k) among other things because they are pleasurable. But ask any pimp, prostitute, or addict - pleasure does not in of itself bring happiness. Only the good brings happiness.

So is Vs productive, or destructive? Well, it depends on how it's played. For the professionals, based on the arguments said earlier, it seems to be more destructive than productive. It seems to lead away from the good, rather than towards it.

It's important to recognize that these questions here are important, and not "stupid" as Ranma stated. Would Ranma prefer questions as to who's the better X-Men 5 drop?

No. I would prefer questions of why does a game figure so much into your happiness?

If you're so wrapped up in a GAME your problem is NOT a game, dude. It's going to find other ways to manifest itself whether it be in gun collecting or sex with hookers or whatever. Gaming is, like most mental exercises, inherently HEALTHY assuming the gamer isn't harboring any mental issues to begin with.

-Mike

As for the question, "why does a game figure into your happiness?," it presupposes that it can figure into it.

But can gaming figure into a persons happiness? Not all mental exercises are good. Not all things that lead to good health are good.

Is it better to game a lot (like a pro) or game a little? Or is it better to not game at all? That is, if the goal is happiness.

And though its true that different things bring pleasure to different people, and that there are different ways to be good (help the needy, practice medicine, etc), its also true that though people's definitions of what is good varies from person to person, and what is truly good does not.

So does gaming fall into the category of what is good inherently, or only some of the time, or none of the time?

Anything that stimulates thought is inherently healthy. The fact of the matter is that the mind is like any other muscle in that it NEEDS to be exercised to keep in shape. You can over exercise it of course, as well... Such as your apparently pretenious, overanalyzation of gaming... But you probably will come out in some ways better for it because you've actively engaged in a mental exercise. Just like I will have.

However, your arguments are still inherently flawed. If your virtue is so weak that it will succumb to a game or, say, rock and roll (lol) then the problem is not the game OR rock and roll... It's your virtue.

A man of weak virtues will find anything he does unhealthy and bad for him, because, surprisingly enough, the problem is internal. Should we be gaming? Yes. Should we take gaming too seriously? No. Should we kill people over leaked deck lists? No. Should we stress over day 2? Sure, just make sure you have some other outlet in which you relieve that stress.

The point is that anything in excess can and will be unhealthy. If you need a flu shot, don't get 10. And if you've got anger issues that cause frequent outbursts of violence you shouldn't blame Grand Theft Auto if you run someone down, pull them out of their car and beat them to death with a tire iron because they cut you off. Cause you kinda brought that problem with you too the game.

-Mike

Happiness is what you make of it. end of story. done.

So if I enjoy, say, playing magic (shudder) then I should play Magic. Happiness is almost imposible to define because it is a relative term in which it has multiple definitions. I.E. what's good to me is bad to you. Therefore there really is no definative answer to your question that does not require an individual answer from every single person in the VS community. IMO VS. is a fun entertaining game that has captured my interest for quite a while. so an answer for me is yes, I should keep playing VS because I enjoy it. And the only real reason for living, as far as we know, is to live. And I choose to live an enjoying life.

Partying in stupid threads that stimulate thought makes me happy.

Are you saying that netdecking is a disease?

Devil's Advocate...

Sometimes I question this too. Some of you saw the "Moving On" thread I started. As I stated there, I'm not really sure I've ever gotten anything really good out of this game. I don't know if it makes me happy anymore. I'm still struggling with this. I've been going through a hard time.

Long story short: I fell in love and shouldn't have. Now I can't talk to her anymore, even though I see her everyday. And it's killing me.

money may not bring happiness

but without money, we'll definetely be unhappy.

If thats the truth, then obviously it isn't the game that is the problem, as Ranma said, the problem is internal.