it's the scare factor. It doesn't affect us, since we know better, but to a person just getting into the game, a card full of bold, italics and standard print is intimidating. It's not speculation since I just SAW this happen yesterday at our sneak peek, when I saw someone trying to explain these things to a person who obviously having a tough time understanding what was going on.

It's a bunch of hassle for something that really does nothing.

that's EXACTLY what they're supposed to do, and NOT doing as of DCR! Every single Backup card still says "use during the build phase", every Leader character says "characters adjacent", and every Vengence card says "Whenever X becomes stunned" so they aren't saving any room, just making a redundant power and calling it a keyword.

It's not, though.

They are there so that a plot twist can say "Target character with Backup" rather than "Target character with an ability that can only be used during the build phase."

Wrathraven-Great poins. This deserves an Amen, Hallelujah, and a Thank You JESUS!

This game does need converts to survive and Yugioh players are the most likely canidates. From personal experience in trying to teach new people the game I find all the keywords and mechanics are just one more barrier. I would love for R&D to take a break from inventing 2-3 new mechanics a set and just flush out some of the previous ones.


So unless you are sniffing the jock strap of the R&D guys then you are complaining and your opinion should be devalued on its face. WOW that is an awful facist sounding declaratoin.

Personally I really enjoy Vs. I think it is the best card game out there, but when I mention this to my wife (who is a Yugioh gamer) she always makes the keen observation that no one plays Vs.

Stu-you may not have this problem in your are, but here in Knoxville we get 12 people to a sneak peak if we are lucky and there has not been a hobby league for months.

So recruiting new players ia a major issure. If you had this problem then you too might die a little inside everytime a new mechanic is introduce. Every new bold word makes one more thing you have to learn....makes it a little bit harder to recruit new poeple to an already complex game.

Well there is my rant to add to the mix. Now everyone can say how I am off base and am "complaining"

peace out.

I am wondering about the techniques everyone is using to teach this game.

Most bold words can be completely ignored at first. When explaining Magic (and if I recall, YuGiOh has something similar), do you bother to say, "This creature type is elf, which is normally meaningless, but in these unique cases with these specific cards it matters."

No. If a player asks what Vengence is, you say "Ignore it for now."

if what you say is true, then I fault R&D for not being able to come up with something fresh than just "almost exact same PT as last set but only helps X-type characters". If that is why they do it, they should just bite the bullet and reprint older cards. It would be better than what they're currently doing IMO.

Hey, here's an idea: UDE, why don't you release a 'Do-It-Yourself Guide' (online) to demo-ing the game in person. It could be in Adobe or something. That way people who are serious about teaching others could learn how to go about it in such a way as to not scare them off.

Unless of course you've already done it. If that is the case could someone please plop a link down for me? ;)

That would be a great thing for them to do.

Anyone who is experienced and friendly with their Hobby League TO (or any gaming store location where you are trying to increase play) can easily write one up and leave copies with the owner so that new players can easily sit down with a guide while they play.

That shouldn't take the place of real life teaching, of course, but it helps.

I've just never had a problem teaching the keywords to players. The first hurdle is both players taking their turn at the same time. After that is flight/range issues. Beyond that, it's strategical manuvers. But never keywords.

All spelling aside, you just proved my point. Complaining about being called a complainer? Strong.

Vs. System is easy to learn, but difficult to master. If that turns the Yu-Gi kids away... oh well. The keywords are part of a brilliant, deep, complex texturing of mechanics. This game is chess, not checkers.

Get used to it and enjoy it, you will improve your life greatly. That goes for anything. Complainers have lives full of negativity. Appreciators have lives full of joy.

It's BECAUSE I like the game so much that I made this thread, I don't like seeing things that are detremental to the game to go by unnoticed. I'm not a partisan, I don't stick up for everything UDE does, nor do I bash them for every little thing I think is wrong with the game. I DO think that this is an issue that needs to be addressed for the long-term health of the game. The "Is Vs too complicated?" thread should be a sign that there ARE people like me who think the game is getting too complex for its own good, and hurting potential sales and expansion of the game. It's easy to cover your ears and shout "LALALALALALALA" when someone has something to say, but that doesn't solve anything and doesn't help UDE fix what might be messed up about the game.

You need to walk before you run.

That is why UDE makes starter decks that are lacking the keywords some people are complaining about.

The keywords are fine the way they are.

If UDE has to have more keywords to remember so I can get some flavor text on my cards then so be it.

The best way to teach someone is to start with a starter deck for a few games with simple concepts.

Then move into constructed decks with a little harder concepts.

And then move on from there.

There is a great demo on UDE.com with Professor X's taking a new person through a demo of a game for a few turns.

VS is not too complex. If the immature Yugi kids cant grasp the concepts then maybe they have not developed the cognative ability to truly understand the game.

Things I have noticed on this thread.

1) Keywords like Vengeance, Backup, leader, and Ally, are always going to have to have text behind them. Otherwise there would be no need for that keyword.

2) However, If R&D intends to have uses for these keywords, then you definitely need them in the card text. There is no getting around that.

3) Even though yugioh has the largest database on individual card rulings, Keywords would turn a YGO player from learning the game. Still, this is what starter decks are for.

4) People have the right to disagree, and think for themselves. telling players to "play it, and like it and shut up" defeats the purpose of enjoying a game. A person is supposed to come to his own conclusion about a game.

5) However, a keyword or two every set may be a little confusing. a lot of people either play with the new mechanics, ignoring the old ones. Or vice versa

It seems like you spend a hell of a lot of time complaining for someone who complains about complaining. Since when is constructive criticism, or questioning something simply because you don't fully understand it, something to be scolded for? Personally, I think you need to reevaluate the view from that high horse of yours.

To the original poster: UDE began the game with a set of players in mind, and most of those players are here now. Since there's now an established fanbase, we're going to have to wait and see how well they're able to seperate and encourage the two types of play in the game: casual and professional. I personally think Hobby Leagues are done pretty well, and I hope they continue to increase the amount of support at that level.

What does Flashback mean? How about Trample? Haste? First Strike?

It's what complex card games do... it's not just shortcuts to an ability. It creates design space and allows for more flexibility to reference classes of cards, just like Kairos said.


Could you imagine if you always had to have "You can only recruit this character if you control another character with the same affiliation" or "Discard a character card with an ability that affects adjacent characters to that character while in play to do ...".

If you want to teach a beginner... use the newer starters. But for the average VS player... it just make the game better.

Complaining is fine... but seriously... this is a strategic card game... it's inevitable... how else would you streamline the game text and create room for more design ideas?

Ok, I have to admit that backup made me laugh. Why? The keyword means that it's an activated power that can only be used in the build phase and yet, on each card, it states "Activate>>>*insert text* Use this power only during the build phase." So, why is it a keyword when the entire effect is written out?

I can tell you why. It's so that other cards can target backup effects. The same for vengence. I believe there's a pseudo-tutor that searches for someone with vengence isn't there? If it just had the text, that card couldn't exist.

I think the only real problem with the new tag keywords like Backup and Vengeance is that they're written the exact same way as normal keywords. So, if you're a new player and you see a big bold word, it can either be a shorthand way of writing something very important (like Loyalty), or it can pretty much be ignored (like Leader or Vengeance). If there were some way to tell the two appart, that would be great.

I do think that the tag keywords are great, though, and would hate to see them go over a little confusion.