you forgot to quote 'sir.' that makes all the difference :p

you mean again?
history never repeats itself, but people always do.

When I was playing Vampire the Masqurade, and Warhammer 40K (one American Game one from the UK) I had to deal with people from the UK always talking down to me, and telling me I was doing things wrong in both games. If my style was not just like the one they used, then I was wrong, no matter the out come I was able to get. So it's not always this side of the pound being rude. Pick up Munchkin's guide to power gamming if you want to see someone from the UK bash Americans. (God bless Grim, no matter how much he hates us, I still like talking to him.)

VS or any CCG/TCG had the same issues. The style of play influnces who shows up where. UDE wants to make money. That style or turn out is not making money, so UDE does what it has too. Maybe to make up for the Pirates card game. And thinking long term sounds good, but the people at UDE have to answer for the short term. And if it was me, I would pick pissing off a few brits over losing my job.

As for things not making it out on time, VS itself was a year late. (I still have the posters from Gen Con)As a game store owner, UDE has always been good at being late, or doing things that hurt the retail store like reprinting hard to get cards and killing the single prices. Or like the time they wanted to stop selling me cards because I would not carry sports cards as well.

Myself, I get tired of reading about people not getting this or getting that. As far as 10Ks go, big deal. So you don't get them. If you got into the card game to win money, then I really don't care what freebes UDE is not giving you. I played Magic when it first came out, none of us cared about winning money, we just played. Same with Vtes (Jyhad). Those that played Yu Gi Oh did it to have fun, anything that UDE tossed out there was just an extra. You pay for carss, you get cards, you play with cards. UDE's job is done at that point. If having a 10K or not effects how many players you have, then the card game failed to sell on it's own.

whould you not admit that a big factor of playing this game is the skill involved? it is for me and there is nowere better to test the skill you have in a game than in a tounament, and for me without one there is no point in practising and testing which is a huge part of why i like vs it rewards skill and take that away from the game its jus less fun. less fun means that you have to turn to new games or different games to get that missing somthing, and lets be honest here ude did not make vs to coner the fanboy super hero market, they made it to compete with magic as a competive card game and used the super hero angle because its not been done well before.

For me and most people I know its not about the money. Its about the level of competition it brings and about having a goal to aim for. I went to Indy 06 with 2 friends from Manchester and that gave us a goal for a couple of months leading up to it. We practised like mad and we got a lot out of it. I finished in 81st place and a friend finished in 86th. We were a bit down to finish just out of the money but we had a great time and met some very cool people. This is what its about, not the money.

We were unable to go to SoCal due to lack of time and money, and unless I top 2 in Essen or Manchester it is unlikely that I will make it to another PC. Even if I do top 2 it is going to be hard work testing as the game is pretty much dead here.

The removal of 10ks was the biggest blow here as it killed our goal. In the states you have large tourneys (esp PCs) to aim for and that in turn gives you a reason to fight for those PC points (and $250 doesn't hurt either). Most of us can't realistically get to a PC so taking away our 10ks takes away all our competition.

The local HL here has about 25 people. The normal store ran tournies get about that many and the winner gets 6 packs maybe. On my days off I sit around and play to get ready for those with a group of people. When I am sitting at the store, I play all day long. I do it because it's fun. Like I played Magic when I was in school, right behind the drums in Band class. Or in the art room (when we were not painting the walls to look like Magic cards) or sitting around Perkins at 2am, nursing the bottomless cup of coffee.

People can play without a huge goal to reach. Not everyone can make it to a PC or a 10K ever. They still play. Not having a 10K should not be a reason for the game to die off or get slowed down. If it was just money that drives people, then other card games would have already taken them away. I know if I was feeling froggy I would pick one of the lesser played games that have cash tournies and play it. If it's about meeting people then I support it, but you can do that without a 10K. Cons and Game stores. Start a local club. A 10K should not drive people to play better, and what I see it doesn't. It just gets them to netdeck something so easy a monkey could play it.

As far as the "fanboy market" UDE made the game to make money. Having 10Ks do not make them as much money as they have to pay out for space and prizes. When I was pitched the game it was to hit the fanboy market. Fanboys are going to play it, and pay for it. They hit that market. UDE does not make money from singles sold on Ebay, which is what the people trying to be the next top player are doing, going to Ebay. If the 10Ks go away, the fanboys are still going to be there buying away. More might come back even, when they can play for fun without people beating them over the head for wanting to play what they see as fun, by the guy netdecking and crushing everyone in order to look cool and rank up there higher.

i can see what your saying but when we had 10k we got hl turnouts of a same number to yours, now we have 4 players that turn up and this store isnt small.
if we pushed the number of booster you got for playing up we wouldnt attract more players it would jus mean one of us 4 would win them.

maybe its the mentalitly we have here but comptiption is a big motovation to play over here jus look at wow. we have a modest number of players for that even tho there are 1000's of players here, its not because the fanboys dont like the game its because the card players stick with magic, cause they love it? maybe but its mostly because of the compition.

This is too much to read about a topic I've put to rest a long time ago.

I appreciate the original post. Thank you.

I don't appreciate any of BackAgain's. You were clearly the instigator in all of the rudeness.

I totally appreaciate RanmaSolo's but I don't think he has space in his sig for "Wins another thread"


BackAgain's comments and everyone else's comments of why should they bother because it's not profitable is clearly ridiculous.

WE ARE A ENTIRE CONTINENT. HOW CAN YOUR MASS APPEAL CARD GAME BE UNPROFITABLE?

"Lack of comic book interest" is clearly a moot point. I doubt people here love fantasy elves, wizards and dragons any more.
The game being unprofitable in Europe is clearly not the fault of the people. The VS situation is far closer to creating coke then marketing it over here as a penis enhancing drink than what most other people think.

And, to reinforce your point, I'm pretty sure that telling the players they quit that they shouldn't quit over losing 10Ks is going to convince them of anything. Ultimately, telling someone their reason for FEELING THE WAY THEY DO is wrong, is rarely going to get a positive response.

To everyone:

The people complaining are the people that are LEFT.

They are explaining why a lot of people STOPPED playing.

Many people would have been content without the big events ... IF THE PEOPLE DIDN'T LEAVE.

However, those people left, so now, not only are there no large events to attend with lots of people and lots of excitement and lots of competition ... but the local areas have atrophied and suffered as well.

The people complaining are not greedy little children that want their 'chance at money'. It could be argued that some of the people that STOPPED PLAYING are that way, but that's just speculation.

The point is the people that are loyal to the game IN SPITE of the lack of support have fewer people to play against, and seemingly little incentive to get new players into the game, and thus they are suffering because of the actions of UDE Europe and players that quit because of those actions.

Those complaining have done nothing wrong.

And you can't really 'force' those that have quit to play the game for other people's sake. Thus, it's up to someone to entice new players to play and/or old player's to return in those areas.

well said rep'd

Yes they are saying why people stopped playing. What I am saying is, if they left because of no big events, then I really do not care. There are things I understand leaving the game for. Ban lists getting to be a pain (or changing every six months like another game) Reprinting whole sets in order to save money and not make new cards (Vtes was good for this in last 11 years) Things that I really could careless about is- People stopping because they have yet to see one Character made into a card yet (I know a few that stop four sets ago, and wont start till Lobo is made) People that stop playing because of big events, because really, you should not need UDE to support tournies to get people to play. I find those that only play the game for such things like the 10Ks are not really people I want to play, or even be in the same room as.

If the people that stayed want those that left to come back, then pull a bunch of people together, find a store or two that will host big tournies with big prizes, and do it that way. If UDE did everything to make everyone happy they would fold and we would all lose. They have thier reasons for not wanting to deal with 10Ks and other events. Be it money gained and lost. Be it time and effert. Let UDE run the company, it's been doing it longer than a lot of the gamers playing VS have been alive. They know what they are doing. If it's such an issue, start your on company, put out a card game and run it your way.

Truth.

Europeans that complain because they can't play in PCs and 50ks or whatever need to learn that they are not the primary concern of UDE, and should not be.

Look at it this way: UDE can't even send boxes of HOG to sell in Southeast Asia. Why should Europe expect better? Simply, they can't.

True.

However, if you COULDN'T play, or had only about 4 people to play against, than perhaps you might change your tune.

And, how do you KNOW the people you are currently playing wouldn't quit over those things.

You shouldn't NEED it. However, in some areas, they apparently do.

So, the people that aren't leaving over frivolous reasons get screwed.

You see, the people that quit, it's no skin off their back. It's the people that DIDN'T quit that are getting the raw deal.

So saying "good riddance to bad rubish" doesn't help the people who have only 4 people at their Hobby League and have no events outside of their community to attend where they know there will be a reasonable amount of people.

So, because of the people you'd rather not be playing the game ... there's a lot of other people that are UNABLE to play the game.

The thing is, you are assuming that a bunch of players that have quit will be willing to rejoin the game for a SINGLE tournament.

There is NO WAY that a store will make a commitment to hold these tournaments on a regular basis if you can't guarantee attendance. Your argument is that UDE can't afford to do this, but shop owners can?

And their reason for promissing Master's Challenges and then not even scheduling any for about a year are?

One of the big complaints, especially about UDE Europe, is very poor comunication. No one has any idea of what is being planned, or if anyone is planning anything, etc.

Yeah, that's a really viable solution ;)

However, part of what UDE knows from being a company, is that sometimes you should do stuff to please your customers.

Like banning problematic cards before the PC.

Like seeing a problem in Europe and trying to redesign the OP structure [if only they actually followed through on the Master's Challenge, it would likely have made a bid difference].

Like their changes to the PCQ structure, giving away entrance EAs, reducing it to a single event and giving away amateur prizes, all of which are in part because of people complaining.

UDE is not infallible. Most companies listen to customer feedback.

No one is telling UDE what it has to do. They are, instead, telling them what is happening in their local areas, something which it is not very likely that UDE 'knows' [they aren't omnisceant either], and they are saying that something is wrong. That something needs to be done to fix it.

Many would probably just like for UDE Europe to, well the expression ends with "... or get off the pot."

Either PUT support into the game, or just end the facade. If they are just going to let the game be casual in Europe without any 'competitive' support [i.e. give them the Hobby League and the events to get PC points which they can't spend without jumping on a plane to the US or wherever the vacation PC even is], than let them know that is what is happening.

If they are going to support the game with events like the Master's Challenge. Then HAVE EVENTS LIKE THE MASTER'S CHALLENGE.

Tell them what the event is.

Tell them when the events will be.

And then run the events.

Until they do that, they are in a limbo of will they or won't they.

While some can argue that UDE doesn't 'owe' them any OP support, they at least owe them an explanation of what OP support they ARE giving them.

If you know what you are supposed to be getting, then at least the complaining can be limited to: (a) comparing that OP to other places and/or what they used to get; and (b) complaining that the actual OP and the promised OP are not lining up.

However, until that time, there is the nebulous question of if the OP that was promised is being changed again, etc, and if the Master's Challenge will ever take place.

Quoted out of context.

He said that people that QUIT because of lack of large events [and technically, it was 10Ks, not PCs or 50Ks, again, misrepresenting the issue] then he doesn't care.

The people that are complaining are doing so because they have no one to play against, because they people they would normally play against them, have quit.

Saying "The people that quit playing were jerks anyway" doesn't really solve the problem of the person that WANTS to play BUT HAS NO ONE TO PLAY AGAINST.

But hey, why pass up an opportunity to misrepresent things to make it look like you have a valid point?

PC, 50k, 10k, Master Challenges? There's little difference, and you're arguing semantics (and I know you know better than that). They're arguing for some kind of large UDE run event. What exactly it is, from all posts I've seen, are irrelevant.

And I'm not saying he said anything. He doesn't care if they QUIT. I'm saying that they should STOP COMPLAINING. I never said BoyOfSteel said what I was saying, he's just in a similar position as I.

Nice try, WaKo, but not nice enough. Your other post was very good, by the way, where you at least addressed the issue. I need to read it in more depth before I respond.