What. Ever.

I have always thought the size of the deck in my hand was important. You may enjoy feeling 30-cards when you shuffle, but in my opinion beginners would be better served by starting with a deck that is the norm for Constructed tournaments.

It's because it's for a beginner. You use these decks to teach them how to play... not to use as your main deck to play.

What Adam was alluding to was that 30-card decks are more consistent in hitting your curve, especially if you don't include search. This is why sealed/draft uses 30 cards... so you can hit your drops when you need them.

You don't need a 60-card deck to teach people about resources, recruiting, formation, combat, reinforcement etc etc... because in most cases a 60-card deck will be too complex anyways.

What would be nice is if you could combine those 2 30-card decks into a playable 60-card one.

Now I understand. Thank you. I still think that 30-card decks are like training wheels that would be thrown away rather quickly, but I am clear about the concept. And I really don't think that Hellboy is a bad teaching tool at all.

Are the WoW starter decks tournament sized?

Nope, WoW starters are 30 cards, but they usually have a decent rare for the class represented in the deck.

I'd like there to be a 60-card starter for different archtypes: Curve, Off-curve/Rush, Combo maybe? It provides an entry point for different types of players, and it also gives people a rough template to go on when they start building their favorite styles of deck, but with other teams/sets.

Here here:p

Well... I don't think you teach enough VS to new players to know that for sure.

When I'm talking 30-card starter, I'm talking stuff like the Doom/FF starters, with minimal game text, little or no search effects and basically combat driven. They should even come with a little tutorial on how to play the game turn by turn.

Of course this isn't for you guys who might throw it away... it's to help new players ease into this game. And some cool bomb cards in these things might make you guys buy them at least for that one card.

1. Playable out of the box...I'd ask for 60 card decks, but would be content with 30.

2. A quality rare or two as a "hook" for new collectors/players.

3. A Hellboy-EC-quality rulebook included for teaching purposes.

4. Random foils included for added collectibility... again, ala Hellboy.

5. Marquee characters featured.

Seems to cover most of the bases at the moment...

So here's what I think:

* Keep the WoW format - DVD case, two packs.

* Let them be able to pick which teams they want - don't make it random like the WoW starters.

* Give three rares instead of two. My rationale being that since most starters give only two, giving three increases the awesome factor.

* Have it come with a spin down counter - so they can keep track of life.

* Have it come with a fold up mat. On one side... have all the zones for play set up. On the other side, you can have instructions on how to play the game - remember the MOR starters?

Fair enough, but I stand by my opinion. If I was new to the whole thing I would rather buy an Essential Collection instead of a thirty-card starter for the simple fact that it would reproduce actual Constructed conditions. If I were to ask someone who plays, especially with the starters we have, they would probably recommend Hellboy (as long as I like the myth). If we got an Essential X-men vs. Avengers or something... the two 60 card decks would sell better than the smaller starters, and actually be a better entry point in my opinion.

I don't think people buy something saying "Will this teach me the game easier than the Essential Collection?" If they are going to invest in it, they probably already have plans to play beyond the starter.

I think Vs would do well with something like this.

http://www.dacardworld.com/gaming/it...Y0T63D4&nPar=2

UDE could do the DC Master Collection, and the Marvel Collection.

Put a couple packs from older sets, and add some of the more commonly played rares.

TDB wins!!

Hellboy is a decent product, but it's not even a patch on the best entry-level boxed collection for a CCG. That would be the Training Grounds box set for Legend of the Five Rings, which was not only the best entry-level boxed collection in terms of raw quality, but also one of the most successful in terms of attracting new players to the game.

Training Grounds consisted of two full-sized decks (a Lion blitz/honor deck and a Shadowlands oni stomp deck) and it had rares. Lots of rares. Rares in L5R varied between three-to-a-deck rares (mostly action cards, but the occasional follower or item, or nonunique personality) and one-to-a-deck rares (mostly unique personalities). Training Grounds had a heap of each category, restricting itself to one-ofs for nonunique rares (so to get a full playset of the rares you'd have to buy three boxes).

And the rares were choice. Power cards like Shrine to Daikoku, Superior Strategist, Sneak Attack and Feign Death were all ten to twenty-dollar cards at the time. The equivalent would be printing a Spider-Man versus Galactus box set with one copy each of Gift Wrapped, Creation Of A Herald, Empire State University and Blinding Rage. (All were printed with alternate art to distinguish them from the originals, and these versions were never foiled to lower their collector value.) Some of the reprinted rares were in fact reprinted from the mail-away collector's set "One Thousand Years of Darkness" (Ashura and The Maw).

On top of that, the set had four exclusive cards (Matsu Hyun XP, Voitagi XP, Deathseeker's Glory and Wanton Destruction) only available in the set, to lure current players. All of the cards in the set had new flavour text to tell an interrelated story about the Lion Clan fighting the nasty Shadowlands baddies, and the flavour text was ordered to make it easier to follow. The box was a nice double-sized cardbox with original art on the sides, and the price point was about HALF of what Hellboy cost.

I mention this because, as I said, Training Grounds was a phenomenally successful product both in terms of sales and increasing the player base of the game. If you're looking to steal ideas for a good introductory product, you start and end with it.

This sounds like an interesting idea. I've never played L5R, but if I had seen a set like that I probably would have tried it. $15.00 is definitely a great entry level price for a TCG.

In fact, I may have to take TDB's victory away.

I will have to second chdb, Training Grounds was an excellent product.

However, I'm against having exclusive cards in starter sets. If the purpose of the starter set is to bring in new players, why concern yourself about whether current players buy it? Perhaps an EA card, if you absolutely must get current players to buy them. Or perhaps a small series of EA cards, not enough for current players to clear out stock, but enough for them to be tradeable so the new player can get better cards.

The structure decks for Yugioh are pretty good. Both the structure decks and Training Grounds give a new player a running head start into the game, which I can't think of any reason why that would be a bad idea. Structure Decks though were also means for new players to get a play copy of what used-to-be expensive rare Yugioh cards. If the starter decks had EOME's and Beatdowns in them, I'm not sure what the effect on the VS crowd would be.

I like the 2-30 card idea. I also like the mash-them-together idea. You could include some team up cards on the side, instruct the new player on how to customize the deck (clear slots to put in the team up cards) and it will open up a whole new experience for the new player.

It would also be good to add one or two random boosters in the box, so after the new player learns how to customize with the team up, they can customize on their own.

I should mention that the starter should be made of existing cards, not vanilla watered-downs made just for the starter. I think VS "Portal" would be a big mistake.

HOWEVER

I still think that precons of Spidey, X-Men, FF, and Avengers would be a great thing. 60-card precons, of existing cards, that are decently competitive and fairly balanced.

Personally, I think it'd be cool to see more Essential Collections as starters- even if they're ECs of things like Superman or The Avengers. Use existing cards, combined with- as Stu suggested- POWERFUL 1-of cards. I think 120 cards isn't un-reasonable. Is it?

Example of a powerful card that works... I think. (pretend its an Alpha Flight Starter... LOL)

Alpha Bomb
Cost 5
As an additional cost to play Alpha Bomb, KO 3 characters you control with the printed Alpha Flight affliliation.
KO all characters in play.

I think team stamping works very well in starters- so why not give uber-powerful team stamped effects here?