I've been working out this build in the FedCom thread with Cloudmoon's help and was wondering what you guys thought about it...

House Davion Hellion - 113
> Swordsworn Captain - 19
Stormhammer R10 Mechanized ICV - 52
> Stormhammer Behemoth II Tank - 103
Stormhammer Anat APC - 26
> House Steiner Towed Thunder Launcher - 26
> Swordsworn Mortar Team - 16
Stormhammer Minigun Cycle x2 - 16
Stormhammer Scout ATV Squad x6 - 48
Stormhammer/Swordsworn Situational Alliance - 30
- 449 Points

or

House Davion Hellion - 113
> Swordsworn Captain - 19
> Grapple - 15
Swordsworn Garrot Super-Heavy Transport - 27
> Stormhammer Behemoth II Tank - 103
Stormhammer Anat APC - 26
> House Steiner Towed Thunder Launcher x2 - 52
Stormhammer Minigun Cycle x2 - 16
Stormhammer Scout ATV Squad x6 - 48
Stormhammer/Swordsworn Situational Alliance - 30
- 449 Points

The idea is to use the ATVs and Behemoth drop to counter big 'mechs without Decoy while using the Thunder Launchers to counter the big 'mechs with Decoy, which typically don't have armor. The ATVs keep "Yami" and "Chikako" based so they can't use indirects or Streaks. The Behemoth is uberaccurate when combined with the Situational
Alliance, so "Yami" is somewhat of a pushover. The Anat has Electronic Camo to keep it safe from the likes of "Chikako" and "Yami". The Hellion is quick, has high attack, and can charge from quite a distance. The Minigun Cycles move with the Anat with matched
speed to provide push and fire formation support for a quick Pulse in a pinch. The first army has the more stable R10 and shorter range Mortar Team while the second army loses the R10 for the cheaper, more fragile Garrot, Grapple gear, and a second TTL instead of the Mortar Team. Thoughts?

As far as i know this is an illegal combination...
the Swordsworn Captain has a SS faction symbol as its requirement, something the Davion Hellion does not have.

Your first army of these 3 is the better one, however all of them are sub optimal, I assume you dont have arrow4 and other stuff as you choose BR ATV's etc. I would suggest to find the most optimalpiece for a designated role. Example Offensive TD SH Behemoth, Defensive TD Merc Kelswa, ATV's Liao then DF, Then SH, and well almost never BR.

Your army 1 and 3 are almost interchangeable, you might try the black rose with extended range Ammo.

I like your first army best as it has some redundancy built in if Chikaku gets in trouble you might save it and the TF can protect the rear area, army 2 has 2 big beasties but no support to speak of. A comeptent player will make you pay for that the hard way by basing you and taking advantage from having more support. The last army is more agressive in nature but you have 3 Art. pieces with no inf. support. Means they get based and do nothing usefull.

Good luck
E130

Considering our smoldering past I wont comment on his stuff.....We have seen enough flames around here. :)

Good luck with it.
E130

The Swordsworn Captain can be placed in either Davion or Swordsworn 'mechs. It's legal.

@Elite

Cloudmoon merely pointed out that an early version of this build lacked any Swordsworn units and suggested I swap out a TTL for the Mortar Team and 6th ATV. Any comments on this builds merits will be assumed to be directed at me and not Cloudmoon, so feel free to comment (or tear it apart if that is your desire).

My experience of the SH Behemoth II is sour. A lot of people said they'd field the Behemoth II ahead of, well, anything else. DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE HOW MUCH THAT MINIMUM RANGE HURTS YOU.

In my Nationals I found myself not dropping unsupported. You have to wait for support to get there in order to drop it.

Once dropped it is simple to neutralise. Base it. Then it has an 8 attack and LOF gets nerfed by whatever is basing it. On top of that it can't break/load any more so you have to succeed in breaking and hope your opponent does not base you.

As has already been pointed out, you cannot mix the SSw Captain and the HD ride.

Well the legal issues need to be resolved but there are other pilots out there.

comments:

Big mechs without Decoy are to be dropped against, You would drop against a Black Rose ? You still need to hit a 14 with only 10 IT as such that can be a hard TD to take. Keeping Chikaku and Yami Based ? hard to do if the are in water i grant you have plenty of ATV's in the army, but are you assuming that the Yami is a pushover because of all that. Without a DF Garrot your drop range isnt better than a tricked out Shivo AO.

the Hellion is also your weak spot as it wil be the piece most easily destroyed. I like the Anat Art. drop best as i am using that little trick for close to 8 months now.

It is a good army but never assume a battleplan before you have seen your opponents army. The plan needs to flexiable in nature as you must adapt to various conditions (PCC's as well these days) You have some excellent army components, TD and Art. Drop, i would prefer a Mech that would have evade and/or agility to make it more mobile.

it has promise.

Good Lcuk with it.
E130

I totally agree here, once you drop, its just an expensive paperweight, only good for shooting low defence stuff.

Yay, i was right :P

For me even in the time of the Df Schmit once dropped it is supposed to be over. i dont care if you base me then because the rest of my army should be able to destroy what i dropped against.

For that reason i prefer something that hits when I drop. Kelswa's need a formation drop to hit, while a Behemoth might hit something unsupported. The latter to me is more important. Hitting without to much hassle.

If a TD becomes a formation drop it tends to become a 184+ point investment just do 5 damage it is getting to much for me as opposed a 140 point incestmenst.

We all have our favourites but I prefer to attack and destroy for tme the Behemoth suits me betterthan the Kelswa.

But against a lot of the new mechs, 5 damage just is not enough to even drop the stats noticably.
Now if that mech takes 10 damage it is as good as over for it.
Wich is a lot easier to accomplish with 24 defence :)

But i think it ultimately boils down to personal preference.

That is exactly what I found. I needed to hit 23s and 24s. Hence I needed the support just as much with the Behemoth II as I would have with the Kelswa. The difference is that the Kelswa could have a second go if and when it missed whilst the Behemoth II generally couldn't.

When you TD with the Behemoth II you have a defense that most 'Mechs can hit back even after 5 damage these days. You absolutely must have a follow-up attack (I used Arnis for an Assault CC). The Kelswa, on the other hand can be used more liberally, ...

In any case, my beef with the Behemoth came not against 'Mechs --- but against a 'Mechless army. I faced too many infantry for my Behemoth to be useful. All the infantry had to do was block the Behemoth's LOF and surround it. So I couldn't afford to drop it because as soon as I did it was neutralised. And I couldn't get LOF from the formation drop to enough of my opponent's units to make the drop worthwhile.

If your opponent can basically neutralise your only offensive weapon and take 5 on the chin whilst doing so - it's worth doing. Against a 'Mech the Behemoth still has LOF and may hit a second time. That is not possible against an opposing vehicle. You cannot indirect out of base contact.

Ok I got a new army for you to consider...
First up is a Nova Kittie one....

:^^: Clan Nova Cat Nova Cat 232 + Aiko Ryohara 32 + IT 44 = (308)

DF :^^^: Garrot 33
2x HS :^^: TTL's 48

5x :^^: Liao ATV's 60
449 total.

Keep Aiko in the CNC Nova Kittie moving up taking potshots when needed, use teh Liao Atv's to prevent charges/DFA's and to get soem VC3, the TTL's are for the turtle break.

Thoughts?

I would either use Aiko + decoy, OR Stark + IT.
If you go defensive, go all out because everyones packing to hit 24 at least once.

Maybe a fun option is Selina + IT in the CNC-NC for some truely sick AO range :)

Out of interest, why use the Garrot to do a 2-cap's job? Seems like a lot of points to sink into it ...

I like the CNCNC a lot but this looks very similar to an army I faced in the Nationals. Alright that particular force used Black Rose and ER Ammo but it used artillery in an Anat and supported it with ATVs.

My problem with running a force like this is that you have expended a lot of points into one unit, which is basically all of your damage production. You absolutely have to use it as often as you can. Nova Cats really don't lend themselves to that - particularly ones with Pulse.

This seemed to be the problem encountered most often at the UK Nats. The big fat 'Mechs just don't deal enough damage compared to cheaper options. Without water (Barrens, Desert Wasteland, Jungle, Mountain Range, Urban - you just can't counter them all) you will be out-damaged by more balanced armies. This is why it looks increasingly likely that 600 point games will become the norm for Constructed play. What interests me is whether the order totals for a 600 point game will stay at 4, or drop to 3 like they did when we jumped up to 450.

Thats an interesting question..

3 is pro mechs, because there are just so many ways to get command (2 sprints, 1 LE CE is like 4-5 orders per turn)
Wich is just enough for a large mech and support.
4 can lead to quite a lot of orders, i can easily get 2-3 sprint drops and the CE's (4-6 orders per turn) into 600 and a tankdrop + 2 artillery wich will make a mean, mean 600 army.