And the manhunters do have some card draw to offset the card disadvantage of substitute.......

Don't apologize, we've actually debated enough (for now).

I like that we're just wink-wink-nudge-nudging our viewpoints at this point. We've all already made our viewpoints clear - taking the debate in this direction after 20 pages is more fun. :grin:

I think we've earned it.

Couldn't agree more. I've tried to rep you like three times on three different posts in the last hour, but I still can't. So you'll have to make due with my appreciation.

When Eternal brought up Vision, I knew this thread wasn't long for the world.

Lol.

If you can put together a half-workable Manhunter Substitute, that really does sound like alot of fun.

And the Sleeper Agent trick I think underlines the amount of potential it has given the right draw, even if it takes an extra turn or two - the trick is then largely consistency.

I honestly think you should go for it ... taking concepts like this and making them viable is the whole point, no?

This is, unfortunately, complete bull.

Assuming that each team has four tutors (yes, I know, a few of them have eight, bear with me here), a monoteam deck with Mobilize will have the same number of tutors available to it as a two-team deck without Mobilize will: eight. (Never mind that two-team decks will run Mobilize as well.)

Furthermore, design is clearly shifting to make on-team tutors more flexible, either by giving them more flexible costs (such as Brother I Satellite, which can fetch you a Checkmate character card for any character discard, or Fatal Five Hundred, which requires breakthrough damage from any character to fetch a Future Foes card) or greater payoffs (such as New Recruits, which costs you a Legionnaires discard but in turn gives you access to any team with Cosmic characters, or Join the Club!, which only needs a Hellfire discard to give you any concealed character). More flexible = better for teaming.

Believe me, the difference between, say, a Hellfire/Checkmate deck without Enemy and with Enemy is certainly noticeable, but the Enemy-less version is perfectly consistent by any reasonable standard so long as in deck construction you take care to modify your drops appropriately. Ditto Legion/Inhumans (which can run twelve tutors before it even considers Mobilize) or Kree/VU.

The problematic issue for a multiteam deck over a monoteam deck in an environment without Enemy is that multiteam decks have to run more drops; whereas a monoteam deck that runs 4x team-tutor and 4x Mobilize can run as low as 26 characters if it likes (and can almost always make do with 28), a multiteam deck generally has to run 32-34 characters to ensure drop continuity.

The important point to be made here is that this should not be considered a flaw in the game. If you want access to the power that Kree/VU can provide over straight Kree (turning Calculator, No Mercy, Science Spire and Baddest of the Bad into Press-chain enablers and getting a wicked burn engine with Zazzala), then it's only fair that you should have to pay the cost of having less room for metatech.

Nice try, CHDB, but you're made of sand!

Heh that would mean I would actually have to get a playset (2 actually if both me and my brother want to have playable decks) of the damn things. I know I will end up opening 2+ boxes of X-men for it (and spending much cash directly), but must delay that as much as possible. I just can not stand the whole trait things and the set's teams for some reason.

I am not exactly lucky with liking the right teams. The first team I wanted to build a deck around was Anti-Matter (this was pre0chomin) and the second was Manhunters. Yes tutors in those teams would have been nice. Hell I would have settled for playable characters even ;)

I know I should remember from what that reference was but it slips my mind..... Googles: ah the sandman card :P

Hellfire and Checkmate, however, are also teams that have GREAT SEARCH CARDS. Even if your point is valid, which I'm not saying it is for a sizable portion of teams, this is a really bad example.

You mentioned some teams have 8 ... well some teams have 0, or ridiculously bad search.

Also, 1 drop Mxy.

In regards to Stu's question about Silver, re: the dominance of Kree if Frankie gets banned - in a Frankieless environment there are answers to Kree. Without Frankie, you don't have to prepare for ludicrously stupid combo decks AND vicious Kree assault decks, so you've got a little more breathing room. Which is as it should be.

(Ironically, the banning of Dr. Light is one of the reasons Kree's gotten so prominent; Lost In Space was arguably one of Kree's worst matchups. This isn't me saying that Dr. Light should have been banned - simply that free Deadshots can really hurt Kree a fair amount.)

We've actually been working on two or three decks that can really smack the crap out of Kree (on the assumption that Frankie gets banned) - they're great Kree-killers, but have trouble against other elements of the field at the moment. Which is as it should be; no deck should simply be an auto-win. A good meta is one with multiple healthy options.

I assume you meant "shouldn't".

I think 95% - 98% of people are with you on the Frankie Banning.

And what I hope for is that each team should get at least one good tutor card and preferably more. Even older and "minor" (as in not known and big enough for a complete re-feature in some future set) teams.

And that they would actually print these cards as legacy content instead of totally craptacular cards.

If every team had a "New Recruits", for example, then I think there would be little controversy over the prospect of an EomE banning as it would not be so severely missed.

The following teams have what I would classify as a reasonable search card:

Brotherhood (Sovereign Superior)
Checkmate (Brother I Satellite)
Darkseid's Elite (Created By Hate, The Exchange)
Doom (Faces of Doom, Mask of Doom)
Emerald Enemies (The Ring Has Chosen)
Fantastic Four (Signal Flare)
Fearsome Five (The Underworld Star)
Gotham Knights (Bat-Signal)
Green Lanterns (The Ring Has Chosen)
Hellfire Club (Join the Club!)
Heralds of Galactus (Kindred Spirits, Creation of a Herald)
Inhumans (Lockjaw, The Great Refuge)
Injustice Gang (Secret Files)
JLA (Hero's Welcome)
Kang (Psyche-Globe)
Kree (Stargate)
League of Assassins (Mountain Stronghold)
Legionnaires (New Recruits)
Marvel Knights (Wild Ride)
Masters of Evil (Mystic Summons)
Morlocks (Bloodhound)
New Gods (Sturmer, The Exchange)
Secret Society (Straight To The Grave, Mysterious Benefactor)
Shadowpact (Detective Chimp)
Squadron Supreme (Answer The Call)
Team Superman (Man of Tomorrow)
Villains United (Baddest Of The Bad)

Not counting mini-teams, that leaves: Anti-Matter, Avengers, Arkham, Crime Lords, Future Foes, JLI, JSA, Manhunters, Revenge Squad, Sentinels, Sinister Syndicate, Spider-Friends, Teen Titans, Underworld, X-Men and X-Statix. Of those teams, five are being refeatured in the next two expansions and will likely get some decent tutor card, if current design trends are any indication, and many of the others have at least some form of tutoring available, and if not have a lot of card cycling instead, and most of the rest are pretty frigging marginal teams.

Yes, the Manhunters will likely never get a really good tutor card. I am not exactly crying a river over this.