Actually, it's best practice not to rely on what your opponent tells you... period. You shouldn't even ask if there's anyone on his team with TK... it's best to just look for yourself.

Always rely on yourself to win games and not on others... and that includes asking/accepting takebacks and other types of leniency.

Last Wednesday, I got too eager to attack and forgot to use Poison first. I got the urge to ask if I can use it since the attack was on another part of the board but refrained from even asking because if I end up winning then it's an empty victory. The point is, don't rely on others to help you win.

Exactly (this is what I was getting at).

If an opponent has a question about anything, I just hand them the card in question. They can read.

I get that it's the championship, yada yada yada. I understand the guy who won did nothing wrong in the technical sense of the word. I understand the winner had no obligation to allow his opponent to take back the move. All that said, it does make me think less of the winner. I just hate that something like that basically decided a championship. It's just not the way I'd want to win and it's another reason I don't really have any desire to play in any major tournament.

Going back to the original topic, as long as someone hasn't made an attack roll or a bunch of other moves that would have effected the decision, I don't have a problem letting them Outwit something else or take something back. In fact, for example, if someone Perplexes up a figure's damage and then tries to Running Shot a figure in Stealth, I'll say "He's in Stealth, you can't shoot him, do you want to use your Perplex on something else". Is that required? Of course not but I prefer my games to be low stress and fun. I also always try to ask for clarification prior to an attack roll so there's no confusion. "Is the attacker's Stealth on or off, what did you Outwit/Perplex, I have Shape Change so let me roll that first".

That brings up an interesting situation (that may have been covered, I didn't read everything).

Player A goes to attack Player B's Martian Manhunter , Player A is in a hurry/gets excited/etc and just says real fast "Iron Man is going to shoot Martian Manhunter" and rolls his dice. Martian Manhunter's controller was never given a chance to use Shape Change... but the attack roll has already been made. In the strictest sense, there's no way to "go back" since Shape Change has to be rolled when the figure is targeted right? So how would you expect the judge to handle it?

You have to give your opponent a reasonable amount of time to respond. If you failed to allow this, he can still get his roll AND a new attack roll if the SC failed.

A power that hasn't been cancelled and does not require an action to activate is always in use unless the controlling player says otherwise.

If the situation you were to describe were to happen, I would first hope that the player's would resolve the issue themselves. If the could not agree, and they called me over to rule, I would require the attack to be redone: first with the Shape Change roll and then anything that were to follow after. This is because Shape Change wasn't cancelled and if it had succeeded, a completely different target and/or other course of action would have resulted.

This presumes, of course, that I was called over immediately after the errant attack roll. If other actions had been taken and I was called over well after the fact, then it is too late to do anything. Keep playing and remember to call over a judge immediately next time you and your opponent can't agree.

Looking ahead, if HeroClix ever goes big time as in National tournaments, and a really big World Championship, rules will have to be laid down and followed to the letter.

I can almost guarantee that there will be none of this gray area where something was morally wrong because it was cheese or what have you.

It's kinda like business... if you're a small company then you can get away with not having benefits for your employees or not paying your employees overtime. But, if you want to go big, then you better have these things in place.

Edit: And, sportsmanship isn't limited to helping your opponent out or not employing cheese strategies. In more established forms of competition such as basketball, etc. Sportsmanship in general = not laughing or trash talking your opponent when they are down, shaking their hands after the game, etc.

You can still beat them up badly and take advantage of mismatches, and employ different types of defenses. And there's nothing unsportsmanlike about that. When you don't let a hard-fought game affect your friendship outside of the game, that's sportsmanship.

You can do all that in heroclix without having to allow takebacks and giving hints to opponents.

IMO (if I were judging), Shape Change is not a may power...if its in use (and it is by default) then the roll has to take place.

Thus, its not only the responsibility of the defensive player to see shape change, but for the attacking player to clarify that its not being used.

Thus, I would allow shape change to be backed up and rolled, up until the point that the next action was declared, even if this was pointed out by an outside observer.

In fact if I saw a veteran player trying to steam roll passed a novice player trying to skip his shape change, I would intervene.

However, if we were talking a "MAY/Can Use" power such as PC, the second attack of Flurry, Indomitable, the Batman Ally, the JSA TA, or something along those lines then that has to be the responsibility of the player.

If however a power goes missed through to the declaration of the next action then thats just a warning and continue on. It gets messy if you try to unroll something once the next action has been declared, which is one good reason that each non-Free Action needs to be completed with the placement of action tookens before moving onto the next action.

My opinion on the matter may be like many in this topic, But I stopped reading after page 11. It boils down to the question of what tournament are you playing at and even what round is it. If I'm at a Local gaming store, and I know the people, I will probably match their style. If I don't know them, I assume they have some level of competence, and again through play match their style. The problem comes when new players arrive and you want to avoid the elitist attitude. The higher the round, based on wins, the higher my chance of playing harder to win. If you've say won two rounds already, I'm guessing you can play and are getting used to the tourney scene.

If you never want new players, fine, run them off by being an elitist (I would label playing every game as VGA declares as elitist) but by no means is his idea of proper play elitist if it is adjusted. A new player, or someone used to fun games coming to a tourney for the first time might be a bit out of their league, and even playing in a competition might be enough to cause them to already be panicked. Playing VGA's method here would be cruel enough to drive some to tears. My point is, VGA's Method works for some, but if you go to a local tourney and they play for fun, and you don't, you come off as a jerk (More likely if you keep going back to the store with super competitive teams knowing they play less rigid) and you could drive players either away from the store or even the game.

There is no single play style that is right or fair, but this is a game with rules, but beyond that with a particular draw to non competitive gamers as well. It is based on Comic Book Heroes, which draws in some players from outside the strategy game circles. If you and your tournament seem to agree on playing that way fine, but you have to look at everyone's position. If it is world's, bring your A Game as someone said, if its a local tourney, be advised that your play style may not be the one people play with.

While I agree with this and the other similar posts is there any official wording that dictates how to handle this or is it just filed under use your best judgement/common sense? Also, what if the attack roll missed? Would you still go back and do Shape Change and then a new roll? Like I said, I agree with you, I'm just playing devil's advocate right now.

I was thinking the same thing when I read this. If the roll was made and it was a miss, but the other player was stating that they should roll for shape change, is it fair to let the other player make a new roll?

Other than the judge is always right? No, nothing that specifically spells out this exact, specific scenario.


Like I said before, hopefully the two players will resolve the issue themselves and I won't need to step in. I'd hope that if the attack roll is a miss, SC player would say, "Oh, you didn't let me roll Shape Change, but since you missed, I guess it doesn't really matter," and Attacking player would respond, "Oops. Sorry about that, but you're right, it doesn't matter. Let's just try to remember for the future."

There is just a lot of latitude on how a judge runs his events. This really is going to come down to your call.

There is really is no strict ruling on how to handle misplays and illegal plays.

There is no real rule that defines whether you need to be an Active Judge or a Passive Judge or somewhere in between.

This is a good thing because every venue needs to be a little different. Its good to have venues that are hard core and prep players for "The Big Events". Buts its also good to have venues that encourage learning and drawing in new players.

Ideally, you want a balance between keeping the event flowing, keeping it competitive, and most importantly not forgetting the prime purpose of the event.

Remember the prime purpose of an event is to encourage people to play HeroClix and buy Product from the local store.

Thats whats most important! And thats why every venue and every event needs to be different because there is a subtle difference from venue to venue and event to event on how you most encourage players to keep playing and keep buying product.

Either way I would trust what ever call you made.

This happened to me at gencon.

I was attacked and he rolled and I said - I wanted to use shape change. And he said "oh i missed, it doesnt matter"

So I think that's how I would have been anyway even if I were on the attacking side

Man o’ man that was put perfectly!!!! I’m new to heroclix and have never played in a high level clixs tournament, and I know if the local guys had played by the strictest letter of the rules I would have been completely turned off of this game. As I was with that stupid ### Meck warrior game. Clixs and the local stores need the most players possible, my local store just closed down last month =o(, to keep them a viable income producing property. Now I use to be a fairly good DDM (Dungeon & Dragons Miniatures) player until that game got canned for not being a big enough money maker for its company, and how I played that game was VERY different depending on where I was playing. In my local shop with players of a very wide ranging skill level, competitiveness, and even age I did my best to keep everyone from getting too cutthroat. Nothing is worse then when you’re a trying to start playing a new game, and you go to the tournament to play and the people there are a bunch of @#$holes elites who will not only NOT answer some basic questions you have but also mock the mistake you make F*** those guys. I HATE Meck Warrior now and have no more interest in that game because of a bad experience at a local tournament with no real prize up for grabs. But when I would go to some of the big cons her on the west coast to play in the DDM tournaments it was very different, and is suppose to be. I never made to word (got close a couple of times) but I would imagine that would be even a bigger step up in intensity. It’s like going from pop Warner football, to high school, then to college, then to the pro’s. You should expect no quarter, and should not be expected to give any quarter at the highest levels of competition. If that’s not for you (I know it’s not for me) that fine, but to call it a dink move in the championship game just seems silly to me. The guy he was playing had to have some level of game to even get there, people make mistakes, and at the highest level of any competition you opponent will, and should take advantage of them.