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I think people in this thread are, as consumers, concerned about the quality of the decision-making going into the game. They have every right to be concerned and make noise about it. From this consumer perspective, drawing an imaginary line between the RA and GD makes little sense.
For those of you trying to silence them or poo-poo their arguments...what the hell are you thinking? I keep seeing replies that basically boil down to "Eh, what are you gonna do? Shut up with yer complaining!" The consumer has a right to demand a better quality product*...or is everyone here such a clix-addict that this has been forgotten?
*Since "product" here includes tournaments and such, decision-making about how the characters interact with each other definitely falls under the definition.
I agree with the first paragraph. That is the kind of argument that I would have preferred to see dominate this thread.
Fine. What are people trying to do in response to people like Masenko, Realik, etc?
All I have been trying to do is point out the actual facts to quell the tide of hyperbole that has dominated this thread. As was pointed out, I have done very little actual arguing.
Resources to relics is apples to oranges, so no Utility Belt comparison from me.
For the Eye versus the Cube, I think they're roughly equivalent. It's a good example. The Cube is easier to pick up. The Eye is harder to pick up, ergo you get a little more bang for your buck.
I compare the value that I get for the points,
Resource or Relic or ATA - it doesn't matter,
I ask myself if it is points well spent.
If you are saying the Eye and Cube are "roughly equivalent"
then we can no longer debate.
I will never ever play the Cube.
Even if there was no Eye I wouldn't play the Cube.
Yes it is 50% to pick up, but it only gives 2 'bonuses'
and there is a 1 in 3 chance you drop it for rest of game
each time you use it.
The Eye gives 4 'bonuses' and you keep it.
It is no Belt, but it is a cool way to spend 12 points
in those games where Gauntlet/Belt is banned
or you don't want to play them.
Alberta ROC Provincial Champion
7th 2015 Canadian Clix Nationals. Winner of world's 1st PDC event
2016 WKO Regional Prairie Dicemaster Champion
Fine. What are people trying to do in response to people like Masenko, Realik, etc?
Fair question.
Quote : Originally Posted by Masenko
This is just more of WK's ridiculous bullsheet. It's obvious these powers weren't supposed to work the way they're written. Every other errata for things like this was "when building your force"
What the hell WK, hire someone with a goddamn brain.
edit: and noh-varr was intended to have his cake and eat it too? How f**king dumb do they think we are ><
Quote : Originally Posted by thrawn22
Why do people come up with this lame ### argument. this has nothing to do with gettting free probs. some teams dont have enough pieces to meet a 300pt build in any age so it was nice to have filler.
the biggest issue is the fact these 2 pieces DIDN'T need the change. these pieces were most likely singled out because the can copy named themes and not just generics like others pieces that do what these pieces did. it was a stupid change plain and simple just like how noh vars change was stupid.
to appluad WKs for anything these days is rather asnine as well.
Quote : Originally Posted by Masenko
Well, thanks for the answer. Now I know the designers are in fact, absolutely irrevocably retarded.
Quote : Originally Posted by Realik
must mean they are not being honest about something.
Quote : Originally Posted by Masenko
This. It's the idiocy (don't forget random senseless noh-varr buff) and betrayal that's the problem more than three figures getting changed.
Quote : Originally Posted by jwb441
Also, we have moved into "it's your fault I hit you" territory
Quote : Originally Posted by rpweld03
Wait, don't you have to fill out a team sheet at pretty much any tournament that takes itself seriously? So, you'd declare the figures' keywords then, right? So, their concern is that people playing for fun are going to throw a hissy fit if someone forgot to say they had a theme team. Riiiight. I think by now that anyone who sees Nightwing, Gandalf, or Stan Lee on their opponent's team is going to ask, "What crazy-cool theme team is that?"
This is just more post-foul-up rationalization. If you've ever been a parent (or a teacher), you hear this from children all the time. It's the inability to admit you made a mistake, and to keep trying one excuse after another to dig your way out of a hole.
Well, the way some of the people around here defend everything WK/NECA does, it is starting to sound like an abusive relationship. So let's roll with that metaphor.
Me, I love the game of heroclix, but the way WK/NECA is cranking out so much repetitive junk these days, combined with the over-powered tournament meta power creep, plus this stupid ruling (let's target the fun stuff, while leaving the horribly broken stuff intact), has me redefining my relationship with heroclix.
If they can't respect me, I'm withholding... money. I'm skipping Star Trek, only picking up the minimum number of Spider-Man boosters, and probably skipping Titans, and Wolverine entirely. Not even doing sealeds.
That's it WK, you're sleeping on the couch.
Quote : Originally Posted by thrawn22
the Gandalf/nightwing debacle is an example of how a select few (oranges) have a bit too much input to ontrol where the game goes. dont get me wrong, we need to have some people that have clearence to communicate with the company, but it seems like that privlege is abused at times. from what i gathered from the cast, techgod seemed to be the only person who didnt get/like the power so he went to GD to have it "clarified" and the change was made. mind you, there are alot of pieces that use the "reveal your force" wording and the few they changed didnt get the treatment these pieces did. the example that sticks out is jamie madrox. he was changed to say "build" instead of reveal and he can be shoved onto any team in any universe but the guys who could copy named KWs get hosed because of the fact they could copy named KWs.
the other thing that bugs me about the cast is the hoo-hum and get over it mentality that was displayed about the change. its one thing not to care about the change if it didnt affect you but to say get over it because theyre other nightwings out there isnt the point. what if i like the power set of this night wing and not the others? what if this nightwing was superiour to the three others you put out? true, this nightwing has a great dial despite the nerfing of the trait, but instead of nerfing the trait why not modify the trait like those of us whom felt outraged at this senseless change wanted? simple answer is because the few who didnt like/agree with this "overpowering trait" had a phone line while we, the majority, had a soap box.
Quote : Originally Posted by Transfotaku
I'm going to cut right to the chase and speak bluntly. Because sometimes blunt is the only way people understand:
1-Anyone with even basic knowledge of the English language could see what Gandalf and Nightwing were going to do. If they REALLY didn't intend that, they should have changed it BEFORE RELEASE. To say what they do now, just makes them look incompetent.
2-The volunteer RA can not pursue an agenda of his own, and can not coax WK/Neca into doing things his way. The tail can not wag the dog.
3-It's clear that, when DC signed off on Nightwing, and presumably the Tolkien estate did on Gandalf, they agreed with the original intent of the figures. Nightwing has been on damn near every DC team, and even a casual fan of DC comics or Tolkien works knows those two are just about everywhere. It's also clear that, since WK had to get the licensors to approve of the work, that drastically change it after the fact is Bad Business.
4-Cutting on corner cases with such severity, while letting severely unbalanced, or horribly written, or Plain Things Need Clarifying pass by just shows they don't actually care about the game or the players.
So, as it stands right now, WK/Neca is incompetent, a bad business partner, lets volunteers control them, and doesn't care about the product.
And probably needs a real game designer and some real playtesters on their team. But that's besides the point.
WK, you need to change it back. You also need to reevaluate TechG0d's worth to you, your business practices, and what matters to you and your customers.
Quote : Originally Posted by Transfotaku
TechG0D is the Rules Arb. There's only one (unless it drastically changed lately). The oranges on here are more akin to 'superjudges'.
The RA's job, or at least it WAS, was to make rulings on what he thinks WK/the game dev department of WK intended, so WK isn't bogged down by all these questions and can design the next set. Fine.
TechG0D apparently overstepped his bounds. By, like, a LOT.
This isn't a bad decision, either. A bad decision is an orange posting an oops in the Rules area here.
No, to get this into the new PG, the RA had to consciously, and actively, pursue this agenda. Because it is in the PG, it was the result of his crusade, as you put it.
I really, really think that WK needs to reevaluate their current RA, and the 'powers and responsibilities' of future RAs. What happened here is inexcusable and unprofessional.
Quote : Originally Posted by Masenko
They lied. That's enough right there.
Quote : Originally Posted by Realik
no it dosn't. The dishonest around the rules is troubelsome. The matter at hand is not a big deal, just changes a few figures. But the rules maker being dishonest...is a problem
Quote : Originally Posted by Realik
I think Techgod needs to resign, or publicly apologize. Anyone agree with that?
Quote : Originally Posted by Realik
Techgod lied or is unsure why he did what he did. We know that cause all his words don't up. And so it's fair to be upset.
Quote : Originally Posted by jetteraf
I think people are angry because he used his official position to alter the way Gandalf and Nightwing worked to match his personal preference. That's further compounded by the fact that he has no interest in the source material for the game and that it was originally represented as a change directed by game design rather than requested by an RA.
RAs are supposed to identify inconsistencies or incompatibility in the rules and "patch" them with rulings that try to replicate game design's original intent as best as possible, not to "fix" rules that are perfectly clear that they don't like. It's particularly galling when there is a host of rules that the community has wanted addressed (colossals piloting cars) that were ignored in favor of "fixing" these two pieces.
Quote : Originally Posted by Transfotaku
Being incompetent in no way prevents people from leading or being part of a conspiracy.
Just means, instead of a conspiracy of silence, or of arms, or a variety of other types, it's a conspiracy of incompetents.
No. It's not.
It's the RA's job to interpret the rules that come from WK.
The antithesis of his job is to make up rules and then have GD agree to them.
His job is to go, "OK, this is what you, the designers, intended, this is how it's worded, this is how it's being interpreted, let me show the players how you want things to go."
His job, to maintain the dignity of the position and integrity of the rules, should also prevent him from leading personal crusades to change things.
He is betraying the principles of the RA.
Except for the fact that making you choose a keyword EVERY SINGLE TURN in no way, whatsoever, streamlines ANYTHING.
You want streamlined, easy to follow and understand? You pick a Keyword ONCE, at the start of the game, and you keep it that game. THAT is easy and streamlined.
And part of the RA's job, seeing as he's the mouthpiece between public and GD, is to be vilified by the people he wrongs, intentionally or not. Or the people WK wrongs. He's the public face, so that's part of his duties.
He don't like it, he can grow a thicker skin or quit, but asking people to 'be nice' when he does them wrong, and does his office a dishonor? Yeah, that's not an option.
Quote : Originally Posted by Masenko
We're vilifying everyone involved.
Personally, I'd settle for a little more complaining about the ruling and a WHOLE LOT LESS personal attacks, comparisons to abusive relationships and assorted tinfoil hat conspiracy bull####.
Fair question.
Personally, I'd settle for a little more complaining about the ruling and a WHOLE LOT LESS personal attacks, comparisons to abusive relationships and assorted tinfoil hat conspiracy bull####.
That a fair enough answer for you?
The problem isn't the ruling*, it's everything surrounding it. This includes people, who are getting attacked because in the eyes of some people, they messed up. There's no conspiracy or tinfoil hat stuff, they're just doing a bad job.
* - Exception: Noh-Varr. There's a serious problem with that ruling.
Quote : Originally Posted by Typhon
what members contribute through donations is actually costing us money
Having said that, holding people responsible for their actions isn't necessarily a personal attack. And it seems obvious to me some shenanigans were involved, just going but what's been presented.
Says who? You? How do you get the right to make that call?
Quote : Originally Posted by Eric2
Having said that, holding people responsible for their actions isn't necessarily a personal attack. And it seems obvious to me some shenanigans were involved, just going but what's been presented.
I've seen and heard all that you have and I still have seen ZERO evidence of "shenanigans".
And even if there were, that is for WK to address, not us.
Holding people responsible and disagreeing with a ruling is one thing. But looking over the quotes that Psychohippie rounded up, it went way beyond that. Multiple times.
Holding people responsible and disagreeing with a ruling is one thing. But looking over the quotes that Psychohippie rounded up, it went way beyond that multiple times.
Says who? You? How do you get the right to make that call?
I've seen and heard all that you have and I still have seen ZERO evidence of "shenanigans".
And even if there were, that is for WK to address, not us.
WE. ARE. NOT. TECHG0D'S. BOSS.
I am the consumer buying WK's product. As a consumer, I demand a better job. I am just in a position this time to be able to identify a particular piece of the "machinery" that lead to this particular "product disappointment."