Seeing the bigger picture: *thumbs up*

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to IceHot again.

However, what needs to be known, I think, is how this is ruled at a GenCon level tournament. Can the fast attacker from the example who rolled a miss "force" the defender to roll Shape Change (since it is always in effect), essentially giving him another potential chance to roll a successful attack?

Still reading the thread (it's long and people keep adding to it)...but this was actually a pretty new application of the rule.

From p. 7 of the Fantastic Four Rulebook:
From p. 6 of the Blackest Night Rulebook:
Under the Fantastic Four Rulebook, Alan could have Outwitted George's characters. It was past the beginning of George’s first turn and Outwit doesn't knock back, attack, or damage a character (at least as game terms are concerned.) It was only with the introduction of the Blackest Night Rulebook that Outwit could not be used by the second player on one of the first player's characters.

yep its the targeting that makes Outwit not good.

Good point! It underscores how everyone, particularly competitive tournament players, should "relearn" the rulebook each time a new starter comes out (I've been guilty of this). I wonder if the upcoming FF reprint will have any slight changes to the 2010 rulebook.

It's too bad that the championship match will be remembered for a rules brain-fart instead of being a championship quality match. I think the lesson learned is to be methodical and stay up to date on your rules, especially if you want to play competitively.

If winning is so important, why do you have for your avatar a famous quitter?

Here's my take. I would just start over and have everything be rolled again.

The initial dice roll that skipped Shape Change is irrelevant. It could have very well been a hit OR miss, but either way it's not used in the game, so it no longer matters. Regardless of whether it was a hit or miss, since neither result counted, it still comes down to one dice roll, which neither increases nor decreases the odds of a successful attack being rolled.

Rolling for the attack before Shape Change doesn't give the opponent any advantage because the roll is not even looked at regardless of the outcome. He may as well have just been rolling his dice for fun.

I think its ridiculous anyone could call George out for the way he handled the championship match.

Your level of by the book or to the letter of the law play should be dependant upon what type of tourny your playing in. if your playing in a local tourney and don't have prizes then why not let someone take something back anytime. if its semi-competitive aka a good prize up for grabs you might be a bit more strict and not let obvious oversites get taken back and then if your playing in a world championship or other major tourney then you play by the letter of the law and if someone doesn't let you take something back you don't whine about it and say thats not cool man.

If your playing at that level and don't either know the rules well enough or make a mistake by not considering all options then you shouldn't expect your opponent to let you take it back out of ignorance or your own strategy error.

Its just like if you were playing in the super bowl and a coach through his challenge flag and after throwing it watched the replay himself and saw that he shouldn't have challenged. its too late to take it back now cause it was ruled your other way. Rules are rules and when your in a competetion they should be followed and the person requiring you to follow them should not be considered a douche because you want to win without having to play fair. The fact is that both players are great and this could have gone either way and if you make a play mistake a player should certainly attack that. The point of being a world champion at something means you played best which George did by not making a mistake where as his a opponent did not. how is that hard to get

While VGA is technically correct, he clearly practices in the kind of rule lawyering that ultimately makes the game not fun. Especially for someone who may be learning the game. If an action hasn't actually affected game play yet, I don't see the point in forcing the opponent to stick to it. I know several extremely competitive players who are not rules lawyers (any many more who are not to the extent VGA is describing).

It certainly sounds as though I wouldn't ever want to play a game with VGA.

Hmm...I'd probably prefer to play against someone like that. I know I get sloppy sometimes, and being held to the standards will improve your play in both friendly and ultra-competetive games.

id say your being a bit harsh but i have run into a few players who do this and it is annoying.

I don't know if your avatar is meant to be funny or not, but it's funny to me. BTW, I agree w/ a lot of people here if you don't want him to change his mind, then don't tell him what he needs or point out the other player's mistakes. Pointing out a person's mistake after they made it is kinda being mean.

Question:

What if George hadn't asked for the clarification about first-turn immunity to Outwit (despite knowing it existed), and had instead waited until his turn to HSS?

Would George have been allowed to make the HSS attack or not?

You can not knowingly allow your opponent to take an illegal action. That IS cheating.

What if George put on his poker face, giving no indication during Alan's turn that he knew first turn immunity applied, then suddenly remembered on his own turn?