Well, what if Alan's Metron had outwitted George's hypersonic on Shazam and on George's turn he said, "Oh, wait! I had first turn immunity, so you couldn't have outwitted my hypersonic." Would the outwit still stand? Would Shazam's hypersonic come back? I have actually seen similar situations and have seen the ruling go either way, so what would the official ruling be?

I can't answer that.


So many things would come into play: Did the player legitimately forget? Has anything else happened between the illegal action and the "remembering"? Did the illegal action lead to other, also illegal actions? And so on...


It would have to be something determined on a case by case basis. Chances are, though, that if a player really did forget and allowed his character (that was theoretically immune) be acted upon... well, too bad for him; maybe next time he'll remember.


In other words, the is no "official" answer to someone legitimately forgetting about something. Mistakes happen and part of a judge's job is to keep the game rolling as smoothly as possible, and what smooths things over can vary a lot depending on the situation. Context is key.

When I play (except when I was playing for Galactus back at Avengers) if someone asks "can I change my action from A to B" I have no issue with it as long as dice have not flown. I do a lot of positioning each turn, and if someone comes up with a secondary idea that is better to work against me, I want to prevent it in the future.

As for me, I actually want to play against someone who has a solid grasp of the rules and has you stick with whatever action you declare. Reason? Makes me a better player. I always remember the big mistakes I make and I learn from those mistakes. I learn so much more because I will remember when presented with a similar situation in the future. I love a good "Doh!"

I'd play against you VGA, happily.

A game between two highly-skilled opponents often comes down to a simple mistake. Mispositioning by one square, taking actions to set up what ultimately turns out to be an illegal action, forgetting that a character has Force Blast.

I would say that I think it's more likely for the match to be determined by who slips up first, as both players are likely to be very competent in their force construction and overall tactical play.

That's what I was talking about when I discussed focus earlier; being a top-level player is not just about knowing all the rules. It's about knowing all the rules under pressure, remembering the most relevent ones, and not making mistakes. If you have that kind of focus, you should win against a similarly-skilled player who does not.

The other factor is often an ability to make contingency plans on the fly. There's an element of luck to most teams (although George obviously built to minimise luck), and you could have the perfect attack undone by a critical miss. A player who is on top of his game has contingency plans in case things go wrong. The contingency plan may not be as effective as the original plan, but it gives you a fighting chance to take back the win.

You nailed it.



Harpua, don't even think about it.

That's wh... Nevermind.

it was stated in the last page
so i would say that HSS is not outwitted, since this was not optional and is breaking the rule, whether or not the players remember or not is irrelevant, because Alan would be "cheating" by playing an illegal move.


but with the argument on whether or not George should of told Alan about the "first turn immunity", and allowed a redo, I would say George played correctly. *though i personally think it's still a "dick" move* If this was a casual games then I'll be on Alan's side, cause its just a game, but this is the championship. People are expect to know the rules especially in the finals.

Also i think that this cause so much controversy because Alan had to move Metron first, then use outwit. Which cause Metron to get slaped by shazam on the next turn, and possibly caused him the game. Alan made a mistake, plain and simple. He placed his pieces in the wrong spot.

To me, this basically comes down to the question whether you believe you are responsible for your own actions or whether you believe others are responsible for your actions.

Those who believe others are responsible for your actions say what happened at GenCon was a "dick move." I wonder if they also say that WizKids were "dicks" for DQ'ing Jarimy123?

Those who believe one is responsible for one's own actions disagree with that statement and will never consider accountability harmful.

Making an honest mistake is not cheating, even if it results in something illegal having happened.

i understand that, im just saying that in Azrael's scenario, outwit can't be allowed even if both players forgotten about it, because its illegal.

I agree that we're all responsible for our own action which is why i say George did the right thing. However if this was a casual game for fun then winning like this means nothing.

There is no first turn immunity rule in heroclix. There is however a first round immunity rule.

And from my perspective, even in a casual game winning with the assistance of others means nothing.

normalview already answered my question and I tend to agree. If one player allowed his character to be outwitted and then realized if aftwewards, then too bad for him. The power stays outwitted. I just wanted to know if there was an official ruling to the scenario.

Recently I allowed my opponent's Darkseid to Outwit my Black Flash (cancelling his Hypersonic Speed). It basically lost me the match. We didn't realise until a turn and a half later - and yeah, it was too late to do anything about it so we just played on.

I feel ya, lost a large convention tournament when a KC Flash outwitted Metron's Imp and knocked him around.