This would make it easier, since outwitting powers like Rampaging Hulk's and Garth's shouldn't make the objects go away. Just stipulate "All game effects except for Objects...".

Just my $.02.

They need to deal with the Incapacitate and Leadership issues too. They need a rule that can cover everything.

ORANGE CONSTRUCTS: Orange Construct objects are objects that can't be picked up and are removed from the game if Larfleeze is KO'd. Whenever Larfleeze is moved, after actions resolve you may move any or all Orange Construct objects an equal amount. Larfleeze considers characters adjacent to or in the same square as an Orange Construct object to be adjacent to Larfleeze for Poison and close combat purposes.

AS far as Outwit and the Orange Constructs are concerned I have highlighted the part that to me answers this question.

The judge at the venue I play at and I have discussed this very topic and we have decided that.

!. You can outwit Larfleeze's ability to create any new Orange Constructs.

2. You can Outwit Larfleeze's ability to transfer damage to any Orange Construct that is adjacent to Larfleeze.

3. Outwitting Larfleeze's ability to create new Orange Constructs does NOT affect any Orange Construct that have already been placed as in game terms they are considered objects and subject to their own rules.

As has been mentioned if you outwit Rampaging Hulk's ability to bring in to the game a light object if there are fewer than 6 objects on the board, it does not cause any objects he has already placed to disappear, he just can't place any new objects this turn.

Following the rules that have been written on Larfleeze's card means the only way to remove all placed Orange Constructs is to KO Larfleeze.

What I am unsure about is if multiple Larfleeze's are in play does that mean if 1 is KO'd that all current Orange Constructs would be removed or just the ones that character placed?

E.

What specific Incap and Leadership issues? Like if someone would have an action token removed if Incap is outwitted, or taking away the extra action in the action pool if Leadership is outwitted?

In that case, you would also argue Perplex doesn't go away if Outwitted.

From the Fantastic Four PAC:
It gives two sets of conditions which are quite clear. It says nothing about what happens if the power is lost. So under your argument, nothing must happen if the power is lost.

Obviously you can do what best works for your venue.

I have no idea what that means.

But that doesn't take into effect the new rule in the 2010 Core Rulebook.

But there are other rules to consider. Using that argument, you would have to argue that the provision in the rulebook is meaningless in almost every situation.

Pretty much. With Leadership it would usually be something more like pushing and losing the power.

Questions, I do not pretend to have the knowledge that you appear to have with the rules and I say that with all respect.

Also never figuring out how to do multiple quotes in response I will do my best to explain myself without being able to quote the direct questions.

I think you are comparing apples and oranges.

You mentioned perplex which is a power in the pac vs Larfleeze's Orange Constructs which is tied into his trait.

It is a given that powers in the pac and special powers can be outwitted and then follow the rules of outwit.

Unless I am mistaken traits can not be outwitted and remain in effect as long as the character that has the trait is not KO'd.

It specifically states on Larfleeze's trait that orange constructs are removed when Larfleeze is KO'd.

Orange constructs can also be removed by Larfleeze transfering any amount of damag to an adjacent construct or by doing at least 3 dmg to a construct directly.

As I mentioned if you outwit Larfleeze's ability to create an Orange construct, which is a special power, he then can not place any new constructs but according to his trait should not affect any constructs that have already been placed as they are considered objects once on the map and I have never seen anyone outwit an object.

Again I would like to state that with the information at hand, and the rules as the judge and I understand them, this is the conclusion we came to.

E.

Let me tell you how. Click on the "quote button in the lower right corner of the post. The text that I quoted will be labeled as: Quote=Questions;5280378 in []. The first part, "Quote=Questions", will make it say "Originally Posted by Questions" once you're done. The second part, "5280378", indicates which post you specifically referenced. (Notice the little blue arrow to the right of "Originally Posted by Questions" when the post is done...that's a link back to my original post and associated with the 5280378.) Continuing...all quoted text needs to end with /quote in the []. So copy the first part "Quote=Questions;5280378" along with the brackets and put that in front of each part of text you want to quote. Then put /quote at the end of each text you quoted, again in the []. And you should be good to go. Play with it a little and use the "Preview Post" button to make sure you've done it correctly.

First, I think it's his special power that is at issue here since it is the special power that generates the Orange Construct objects in the first place. The trait governs how the Orange Construct objects move and one way (not the only way) for them to be removed from the game. However, it is the special power that generates them and the current rules only care about the power that generates the effect, not a trait that regulates them.

From p. 15 of the 2010 Core Rulebook:
Would you say the objects placed by Rampaging Hulk go away since those are associated with a special power and not a trait?

You're correct.

I agree that the trait removes the Orange Construct objects when Larfleeze is KOd. However, that is not the only way to remove them. As you just indicated, they can be removed through his Orange Lackeys special power. They can be destroyed and removed from the game. Under the current rules, Outwitting his Summon the Orange Lantern Corps would just be another way to remove them from the game. Removing them is not exclusive to his Orange Constructs trait.

If his trait overrides all and his Orange Construct objects can only be removed when Larfleeze is KOd, then you shouldn't be able to remove them through his Orange Lackeys special power or the other ways mentioned above. You can, though, because the Orange Constructs isn't the exclusive way to remove the Orange Construct objects.

I submit that the rules do not support the outcome, but I do support you doing whatever works best for your venue.

Questions.

As always your argument is sound and raises valid points.

Thank you for the instructions on how to "Multi-quote" Rep is forthcoming.

It will be interesting to see how the powers that be interpret this and what their final ruling is.

E.

Carp. You must spread some Rep around before giving it to Questions again.

No problem.

Don't get me wrong...I think it will be ruled the other way. I'm just hoping whatever solution is reached isn't a laundry list clarification of which effects do and don't work with it. I'd rather see a solution that can be applied generally to any given situation that might arise. (A few have been suggested, but we'll see what comes of it.)

Q) I appologize if this question has already been asked and we think we have the answer figured out, but, if one of the constructs rolls a critical miss, does Larfleeze take the damage? We believe that he would because it says it is as if Larfleeze is attacking.

The construct is never attacking. Larfleeze is attacking as if he was in the square the construct is in. So yes, Larfleeze would take the critical miss damage.

Thanks a bunch

Very close answer, with slightly wrong reasoning. Larfleeze is attacking as if the opponent is the the square adjacent to him, not that Larfleeze is in the square where the construct is, for a few reasons:

1) Larfleeze never moves, and game effects such as knockback need a definite position of attack that is related to Larfleeze's position rather than the Construct's position. Yes, a figure can be knocked back 1 square and end up in the same square as the Construct... which brings us to point 2.

2) Larfleeze cannot occupy the same square as the target of the attack, but he can attack a character occupying the same square as a Construct.

3) If Larfleeze was treating as moving to the square as the Construct, PC could be used targeting the Construct, but this does not happen.

These are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head, but they are all important elements that are changed by the silly little wording difference.

Ok so I have somewhat of a Larfleeze strategy that I think works but I wanna make sure. Basically its a team of Larfleeze, Sargon, Hercules, and a TKer. First Larfeeze creates an object and drops it within Sargons SP range. Then you TK out Hercules and have him charge/flurry grabbing two object along the way. Hercules will only use one of his objects during his attacks thought. Finally you "Sargon Swap" Larfleeze's construct with the object Hercules is still holding and punch the opposing character that Hercules just hit with Larfleeze thought his construct. Is this alright or is there some problem with this that I overlooked?

A couple:

First, Hercules can't choose to not use an object in a close combat attack. If he's holding something and he uses Flurry, he's going to use the object. No getting around that.

Second, if Hercules is holding an Orange Construct for some reason, then it really isn't on the map anymore, so there would be no way that Larfleeze could attack through the Construct.

Finally, Hercules can only hold two objects if they are both standard objects. Orange Constructs are not standard objects. If Sargon swapped one of standard objects with a Construct, I'd rule that Hercules no longer met the criteria of his special power and would have to choose to drop one of the held objects immediately.