Im hoping for a fig that makes a big splash, someone with range preferably..

I think I handled the query well, and without the barest hint of animosity.

Some "hot button" concepts CAN be discussed rationally, contrary to popular belief.

EDIT: For the record, I'm not getting into the faith-based aspects. More of a character study sort of thing.

I heartily disagree with that. The concept behind the Flying Spaghetti Monster is sound. The whole point is to create a dummy religion to illustrate how impractical it is to try to combine religion and government. It's not meant to mock religion, it's meant to specifically make a point about separation of church and state. If you're reading that as nothing but trolling, either you're mis-understanding the point, some jerk is mis-representing it to you, or you're evaluating it on a completely different axis than I am.

I don't necessarily disagree with that, though.

I've said before (within the last ogre thread I think) that I have a Cthulhu fish on my car. It's for me. It's not intended as a political or philosophical statement. It's there partly to help me find my extremely common car in parking lots and partly so that other Lovecraft fans might get a chuckle out of it. It's so meta that any meaning beyond that should be clearly pretty humorous, and if people are going to read into it past being a pop culture reference then they're free to do that I guess.

But the masses dont know about conversational ethics and these topics can ruin friendships and make association awkward.

Paradise Lost isn't canon! It's bible fan fiction.

Yep. This.

I have three bumper stickers on my car: a "Cult of Cartman" sticker, one that reads "You Can't Beat a Woman who Shoots", and a They Might Be Giants one. They're just for funsies.

Now, generally speaking, I've found that the sort of people willing to plaster their myriad political beliefs all over their car in the form of pithy slogans are the LAST people I want to engage in/capable of rational discussion.

No, it isn't "canon," but it provides just about the best objective character study of the Judeo-Christian God that you're likely to find.

Also, RE: Biblical basis - John Milton spent his entire life studying theology and mapping out his own Christianity, always based on Biblical analysis/research.

Also, that doesn't invalidate the points made.

You mean like the neighbors I once had that owned a BMW with the back end covered in a combination of environmentalist/political/anti-religion stickers. It was sad to see such a nice car defaced. I didn't engage in political or religious conversation with them, but the husband had a killer sound studio in his basement.

I have an Apple sticker on one car, and an Abide (Dude) sticker I keep forgetting (for well over a year) to put on the other.

There is, as far as I know, no textual evidence that he can't undo his own doin's, just that he didn't in that one case. And isn't the entire argument that god undoing free will invalidates him a very human-centric one? Maybe humanity is just one of the projects he's got going on. It might invalidate him from our point of view, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything in a larger sense.

(Disclaimer: discussing the finer points of religion with me is pretty pointless, because I don't know that much about it and am probably not going to learn that much beyond what people tell me when I argue about religion.)

Changed in light of the topic at hand. My main point was that people use such statements as a placeholder for actual analytical conversation, and I like shaking people from such training wheels when/if possible.

Wow, discussion is a bit meatier than normal today. Good reading guys, but I don't have the time to weigh in. Maybe if the subject is still relevant tonight I'll contribute, but most likely the subject will have changed 3 or 4 times by then.

I work for a sign shop and yet have no graphics of any kind on my car. However my wife's van has custom pinstripes, with a small, subtle Wonder Woman logo cut into them on the driver's side and a small, subtle Superman logo on the passenger side. I really should do something on my car, but I just never have the time to do fun stuff for myself.

I'll say to you what I say to anyone arguing anything: it pays to know your stuff. PM incoming with a (particularly useful) example.

Correct. However, there's no evidence of him EVER undoing his own actions. The best you see is a sort of "Well, I CAN'T undo this, but I CAN promise not to do it again, going forward" as in the case of the flood.

If he demonstrates an unwillingness to undo his own actions, as well as a desire to make amends instead of out-and-out restitution/restoration, it isn't much of a logical leap to extrapolate a reason for that.

Not really, as humans aren't the crux of the argument/problem: free will IS.

Free will is just the edict. He could have given it to chipmunks or lions and the principle would be the same: he made the decree/decision, he has to stand by it. Giving himself a "mulligan" would undermine his resolve, render him flawed, and also render him incapable of enforcing laws which he can flaunt at will.

You can't be simultaneously perfect and flawed. As such, you see God working around his edicts/actions while preserving their effect as opposed to him saying "screw it, do over."

I guess that the best way to put it is that the character of God is as beholden to his own personal responsibilities as he expects his ostensible creations to be.

True. If, however, this is throwing any noses out of joint (no judgment value there) please let me know and I can take the discussion off-thread.

A pinstrip thats actaully the tail of Thors hammer being thrown, the hammer at the front with the stripe following behind.