Actually, it looks like he won because he had more points to work with due to the fact that KC Superman is less points than E-2. The KC Superman was able to add Alias and Protected which would save him from that first and/or second attack. The combination of Zatanna and Batman were enough to neutralize his Batman's outwit which enabled him to use his move and attack power to K.O. E-2 Superman. The E-2 Superman even had a chance to land an attack, but failed. His team, positioning and strategy won him the match. The meteor was just the icing on the cake.
This is the main reason that I prefer KC to E-2.

I have to dig that issue out and read it again. I haven't read it since it first came out, but my point was that if it was pre-Crisis Superman, then he should have easily mopped the floor with earth 1 Supes. It could have been poor writing or maybe they chose to make one stronger or one weaker than before, but that fight was pretty even the entire time.

Yeah.........ummmmm no. All the great positioning in the word doesn't mean squat if E-2 makes his Impervious roll on that attack, which he never got the chance to do. So the (cheesy) Meteorite is what won the game for him. That and the fact that his opponent obviously doesn't know enough not to put his Batman on top of an object hat can be destroyed Might he still have won? Sure. But take the Meteorite out of the equation, and E-2 at least stands a chance.

There were a lot more factors in play than one special object.

• Bad positioning. As you mentioned, the Batman placement was a key error. Unforgivable on that map.
• BFC. Legendary Day removes one of KC's chief disadvantages.
• Feat choices. Alias is a tentpole-killer if it goes off. It went off. And against KC, who can deal 7 clicks per attack, E2 should've been packing Protected instead of Shellhead. HE CANNOT AFFORD TO TAKE THAT DAMAGE, and in any game against an Impervious tentpole the presence of a Meteorite should be assumed -- and prepared for.

Basically, the KC player prepared much better for the fight than the E2 player. He removed E2's Impervious and quasi-Willpower advantage from the equation and played a better tactical game. E2's player wasted attacks on OOTS Batman and failed to remove KC's Scorched Air -- the single biggest threat to his force -- from the equation.

Actually, after doing some wiki research, it seems that E-2 was a bit weaker than Pre-Crisis Superman -- and, consequently, Superboy Prime. But that was still considerably stronger than modern Superman.

When you reread Infinite Crisis, you'll see that Superman is the one rather bruised up while E2 isn't. (IIRC. )

Ummmmmmmm........yes. He started the game by purposely staying out of E-2's range. That's positioning. The Meteorite is cheesy? He was going up against an E-2 Superman and chose an object that would benefit him the most. Doesn't sound like cheese to me. If you think that the Meteorite is cheesy, then you can call them both cheesy for bringing a chase Superman to a tournament in a standard 400 point game. Now I wasn't there, but it looks like his opponent tried to extend his reach and put Batman out there to outwit KC's Scorched Air special, so he didn't get hit and the object was possibly the only hindering terrain he could use to do it. He was trying to be defensive, but it backfired on him. E-2 had 2 opportunities to hit KC. He used the first to try and hit Batman which missed and then the Alias worked on his second try.
We also don't know for a fact that E-2 didn't get the chance to try an Impervious roll. Morand never stated that he outwitted E-2's Impervious. What he said was:

"KC pushes thanks to legendary day first attack hits and I roll max damage on the meteor 8 clicks. Follow up attack Kio’s E-2. Batman soon followed. "

This could mean that the attack put him on his last click and after he clears KC he hits E-2 again for the K.O. He could have made a critical hit on the first or second flurry to K.O. E-2 in one action or he could have had Batman outwit E-2's Impervious and finished him off with the flurry attack. The description wasn't entirely clear, but you just can't assume that E-2 didn't get to roll for Impervious. You are right that positioning doesn't mean squat if E-2 makes his Impervious rolls, but the same holds true for KC, so your argument really doesn't work because it works on both sides.

Clearly, the E-2 player should have had protected as Rurouni KJS mentioned which would have saved E-2 from taking some damage, but it doesn't give him an automatic win. The KC player played a better game and had a better strategy. He also had an extra 79 points to work with in terms of feats and support pieces. Personally, I would have thrown in some cheap TK. To say that positioning doesn't mean squat is absurd. It's a huge part of the game and most times means the difference between winning or losing.

Oh right. Nothing at all. I didn't position or move my figures, I didn't make sure I'd stay out of E-2's charge range, I didn't blow up an object to deny batman his outwit. I didn't even roll dice. All I did was put down the meteorite and scream I WIN SUCKER!

Thanks for that insightful commentary

E2 had Fortitude. There was little to fear from Outwit, which makes the E2 player's attack on Batman all the more pointless.

You are right. I forgot about that, so it proves that his opponent did get a roll for impervious, but mised.

He never rolled. I hit him with a meteor. The damage from a meteor cannot be reduced. He took all 8 clicks of the first attack and the second KO'd him

Again, correct. That's what happens when I don't use special objects when I do get the chance to play.

I think I also need to clarify some actions in my game particularly this section

First, why move his batman to outwit? My Superman was 11 squares away from his E-2. I had no tokens on me at the time. I was too far to shoot and if superman had charged me, hit and I didn't roll impervious (or he outwitted it), I would have burned protected and then flurried him to end the game. His batman moved to outwit my move and attack to deny me an eventual flurry, the reason he moved onto an object was to deny my batman a chance to OOTs to it as it was the only object in his range and that he could see. His superman shot my batman BECAUSE he did not want batman to destroy that object. OOTS has 1 click of natural 3 damage, and would have been knocked off of outwit as well. No one planned for him to miss. Once he did, thats when my batman and zatanna did what they did to remove the outwit.

I then walked superman 10 squares (his movement) to base E-2. My batman was pushed, and his batman couldn't stop me as he had a natural 2. E-2 took a free action attack on his turn after I based him which was stopped by a successful alias roll. He cleared E-2 and on my turn I flurried and KO'd him.


Hopefully that answers some questions about my opponents strategy

Makes a little more sense now. Though in retrospect, the best move would have been to just blast OOTS Batman and hold his own Batman in reserve, since KC couldn't get to you. As outactioned as the E2 team was, and with KC unable to get a first strike, it would have been prudent to play a little more defensively.

But really, the game was half-lost from the start by not using Protected on E2. Without that feat, he's done even without the Meteorite if KC's got 2 heavies and E2 flops 2 Impervious rolls. And while E2 will always get first shot, that shot has more ways of being nullified (via HT TA, Alias, Impervious or Protected) than landing.

How about you guys just state that either fig can beat each other, and that it is a tactical battle. One on one, obviously E2 will win, due to his ability to maneuver with his willpower like ability. I think it's alot of dice rolls. KC just gets an extra bonus to hit if the opposing character misses the Hypertime Ability roll, or the other opposing character makes his impervious.

I don't know if I want to shell out the money for an E2 Supes now. Seems like they are both pretty much even in alot of ways, just because you rarely ever play games that are over 400pts.

Both figs are fun though.

yeah both figures are very nasty and either of them can beat each other even head to head it all comes down to the dice rolls and i don't care what anyone says i still like prime the best but that's just me and there is a time and place for E2 KC and Prime but man if you can get a super high point game and play all three that's when it is really fun

Punctuation, man. USE IT!!!

Prime eats both chase Supermen for breakfast, lunch, dinner AND the midnight snack.