Forgot my feedback , d'oh !

Obviously by the dial I think it can sorta be done, but it'll take the use of special power, traits , and maybe even a special scenario or scenario rules to get close (notice Galactus/Spectre/Starro having tremendous stats, muliti-attacks, and or multi-healing to overcome the inherent disadvantages to having a 1 figure team ).

The uber powerful versions of Hulk and Doomsday do lend themselves to be more scenarios than characters.

OK, due to some of the feedback I received and some studying of the dial I made some changes. This dial is the final version. See my original post at the beginning of this thread for a full explanation why I designed this Hulk the way I did.

I'll explain a bit below the dial of why I made the changes.

Why a 532 point Hulk dial? That's Outrageous! Simple! We have a 1,000 point Phoenix, we have 400 and 300 point Sentinels (and Hulk would smash a Sentinel in a matter of minutes), we have a 500 Point Thor, and we have a 500 Point Superman/ Batman Duo figure. So is it really a big leap to make a 532 point Incredible Hulk? Hulk is arguably the most formidable hero/anti-hero in the Marvel Universe. He's the closest thing to a god Marvel has, without being a god such as Herc or Thor. They imprisoned Hulk on Sakkar (on accident on that planet) because Hulk was such a threat to the Earth he belonged on an uninhabited prison planet. Hulk is more than just a monster.... he is a force of nature and science that cannot be ultimately stopped.

#408 U Incredible Hulk (Beta 1.1 Version)
Team: No Affiliation
Range: 0
Points: 532
Keywords: Brute, Monster

10 10 15 5

10 10 15 5

10 10 15 5

9 11 16 6

9 9 15 5

9 9 15 4

8 9 14 4

8 9 14 4

7 8 14 4

8 10 13 5

7 8 13 3

KO KO KO KO

You No Hurt Hulk - Incredible Hulk can use Impervious, but succeeds on a roll of 4-6. Incredible Hulk ignores opponent's Penetrating/Psychic Blast.

Puny Human No Run Away - Incredible Hulk can use Leap/Climb and Charge.

Hulk Smash! - Incredible Hulk can use Quake and Super Strength.

You Make Hulk Angry! - (Regeneration)

Get Outta Hulk's Head! - When Incredible Hulk is the target of a successful Mind Control attack roll a d6. On a result of 5 or 6 Incredible Hulk ignores that use of Mind Control.

--------------------

The main change: I got rid of his "Hulk No Needs Friends" special power and replaced it with the "Get Outta Hulk's Head" special power instead. The problem with Battle Fury on Hulk is three-fold:

1) He's already a Giant, so he can't be carried anyway.

2) Hulk is not immune to mind control attacks, as shown numerous times in the comics, but he is highly resistant to them. He usually breaks free rather quickly from mind control due to his extremely strong will. But I didn't like the fact that with Battle Fury, he couldn't be mind controlled at all, and that's just not accurate.

3) The third problem with Battle Fury is it doesn't allow Hulk to throw objects in a ranged attack. A Hulk that can't throw objects? Not in the Marvel Universe I grew up with.

The other thing I changed was his point total. 496-500 points was just too low. I did some more research, punched him in the point calculator, and decided that he checks in at 532 points.

Now I'll play test him over the next few months in various games against different players and teams, and see if he is balanced or not.

I've created a HCRealms blog so I can keep all of my custom dials in one place. See my profile to view and comment in my blog. But I'll be commenting in this thread as well.

Many people now have asked me or made comments about my Hulk not getting stronger with each click on the dial. They say, "You're dial's numbers fall as the click gets deeper, and your Hulk doesn't get madder and stronger like the Hulk does in comics."

My reply:

You must think outside of the box that so many people are trapped in. You must free yourself from the prison of the Matrix. It has enslaved your mind with conventional wisdom.

I'm an out of the box thinking type of guy. HeroClix has many powers and abilities, and now special powers and traits, that can let you represent a figure accurately without having to have an arms race mentality, thinking that higher numbers are always better.

I digress from those that say my Hulk doesn't get madder and stronger as he gets angrier.

I just chose to think outside of the box that so many are stuck in.

You see, the problem with most Hulks as it happens in most games: They get Outwitted, Psychic Blasted, and Exploit Weakenssed right past their best clicks until they are impotent. Happens in so many games. Hulk comes busting out, he's a huge threat on the map... so he gets Outwitted then Psychic Blasted right off his best clicks. So much for the INCREDIBLE Hulk. He's not so incredible now is he?

The way I chose to make Incredible Hulk get stronger as he gets angrier? Easy. I gave him the trait of Impervious with successful roll of 4-6, made him immune to Penetrating/Psychic Blast...

.... and here is where I'm thinking out of the box.... Hulk has a massive regeneration rate, healing most wounds in just mere seconds.... so I gave him Regeneration throughout his dial...

... You attack Hulk, he takes damage, he heals and gets madder. His dial heals clicks to represent him getting madder, stronger, meaner, angrier.... So by thinking outside of the box, I have represented Hulks regenerative abilities and his "THE MADDER HE GETS, THE STRONGER HE GETS" is demonstrated via the use of Regeneration.

I didn't have to have some arms race mentality, the higher the numbers the better mentality. Again... why should Hulk have an 18, 19, or 20 or ? The answer: He shouldn't.

There are better ways to design dials than the current trend of higher numbers are better, which just leads to power creep, making the older figures obsolete... which is just want WizKids wants.

Holy Hulk! This is an awesome representation of The Hulk. I would love to play this piece and it looks very accurate. Now I have to post the Hulk that I made on here

Thanks for the kind words. You're Hulk is cool too! I really like your Continual Healing and Thunderclap powers!

I have him ready for print and play here if anyone wants to beta test him:

http://www.aduckwhat.com/robert/hero...r&view_id=5704

I made a few changes, but only cosmetic:

1) Changed Puny Human No Run to Puny Human No Run Away

2) Changed No Hurt Hulk to You Make Hulk Angry! (Regeneration)

3) Reformatted the back of the print and play character card. Broke it into 3 paragraphs, made the image of Hulk larger, and wrapped the text around at the top of the card.

Anyone that wants to print and play it, feel free to beta this Hulk and share your results and thoughts.

Just curious...if you think that Defense Value are simply how hard it is to hit someone then do you agree with the following values?

Blob: 9
Juggernaut: 10
Spider-Man: 19
Flash (any really): 25
Quicksilver: 22

And in reality those numbers should be much higher for the speedsters and closer to 2 for the Blob.

Hey Terman8er! Cool to see you join the conversation. I haven't been in the same thread with you in some time. I hope you had a great Christmas.

To get to your questions:

In the vast majority of cases, I would say yes, Defense Values are a gauge to determine that characters ability to evade attacks.

To quote the HeroClix Rulebook:

"DEFENSE VALUE: A number that represents a character’s ability to avoid being hit."

Also, see the Rulebook page 9: The Attack Roll, Dealing Damage, etc.

Evasion powers such as Energy Shield/Deflection and Combat Reflexes can be used to boost Defense Values against certain types of attacks, or a trait or special power can be used as well.

Damage Reducers, well, do exactly that... reduce damage from a SUCCESSFUL attack. Damage Reducers such as Impervious, Invulnerability, & Toughness should not be used to make a character harder to hit in conjunction with overly high defensive numbers. Hence my whole argument that Hulk should never exceed a 16 defense, and even a 16 is a tad high for the Hulk.

With that said, for game balance purposes, and because it has been precedent since Infinity Challenge, we need a cap on base combat values...

...no character's (besides Colossals) Movement or Defensive Rates should ever exceed a base of 20. Damage values should never exceed a base 6. That has been precedent since Infinity Challenge (Ant-Man with a 20 DefV, and a Hulk has a 6 Damage Value.) Attack values should never exceed a 12 base attack, with the exception of an extremely few exceptional figures.

Now that I have laid out where I stand and my philosophy of HeroClix game design, let's look at the characters you posted and their numbers:

Blob: 9
Juggernaut: 10
Spider-Man: 19
Flash (any really): 25
Quicksilver: 22

Here is what I think:

Blob

I'd say a 9 DV for Blob is a little low. I'd give Blob a Defense Value of between 11-16 depending on what rank he is (REV, U, LE, etc), and where exactly I'm assigning those numbers on his dial.

The reason I would justify 11-14: "Blob can alter his personal mono-directional gravity field beneath himself to make himself virtually immovable as long as he was in contact with the ground, although an incredible force can uproot him, along with a chunk of whatever he is standing on. The only beings on record to have been able to move the Blob against his wishes are the Hulk, Juggernaut, and Strong Guy."

How I justify the 15-16 DV: "Despite his morbidly obese appearance, the Blob's speed and agility are those of a fairly athletic male of normal stature, a fact which frequently catches his opponents by surprise."

His head also isn't protected by his mutant powers, and he is very susceptible to being knocked out and getting concussions. However, Blob should have some serious damage reducers of some sort. I can even justify giving Blob Indomitability on his Veteran or Unique dials.

I would make the Blob's dial between 6 - 9 clicks deep depending on REV status.

------------------

Juggernaut

Again, too low of a defense, the 10 DV that you asked if I agree with. I'd give Juggernaut a minimum of a 13 DV, but that is pushing it the very low limit I'd give him. I'd most likely give him DVs from between 13-17, again, based on REV, etc.

The reason I can justify 13-15: Juggernaut, when not in motion, is rather slow, and easy to hit, but almost impossible to damage. Cyttorak granted Juggernaut massive strength and indomitability, and durability. Capable of lifting buildings, taking direct hits from Mjolnir, etc., he should have some serious damage reducers and a very deep dial.

My reasoning for 16-17 DV: I quote: "The Juggernaut is described as physically unstoppable once in motion." When Juggernaut gets to moving, he's moving, and rather quickly. It's a lot harder to hit a moving target that stationary one.

Based on what is known about Juggernaut, and depending on REV status, I'd give them all Indomitability, both to represent his unstoppable movement and the fact that he does not grow tired.

----------------------

Spider-Man

I can easily justify a 19 base DV on Spidey.. as long as it's his Veteran or Unique versions. Spider-Man is probably the most agile character in the Marvel Universe.

For Spidey, based on REV status and where on the dial I put the numbers, I'd give Spidey anywhere from a 15-19 DV. However, I'd never give Spidey a 20 DV. And on maybe a very rare circumstance, I'd give him a 14 DV, but never, ever lower, and for a 14, it would have to be a specific Spidey from a certain story line.

Also, besides his amazing agility, he also has his Spider-Sense and Web Shooters, which also make him hard to hit as well. Using ES/D and Combat Reflexes this can be shown as well to give boosts to his base DVs. Then add in Leap/Climb and Super Senses as well to reflect his web shooters and agility, then his Spidey Sense, respectively, to give opportunities to evade attacks as well.


------------------------

Flash & Quicksilver (I'll handle them together, since they are both speedsters.)

Again, I'd never exceed a base 20 DV. That should always remain to be the highest base number that can be assigned.

Flash is a lot faster than Quicksilver.

However... I'd do the opposite that I'd do with the Hulk or Juggernaut (massive damage reducers, etc., and low DVs.)

Also, besides high Def Values, you can also reflect their ability to dodge attacks via their movement rates, their mobility. It's hard to hit a speedster in the first place... it's even harder to hit them when they run away, and this can be used to portray their defense as well via their Movement Rate.

Based on REV and where on the dial... I'd give Flash anywhere from a 15-20 DV, but I'd use powers to boost DVs and add damage evaders as well. Give him a good MR as well, anywhere from a 10-20 movement rate.

Quicksilver is a bit of a different animal (unless you make the High Evolutionary Quicksilver, then I can justify a 19 or 20 DefV). I'd give Quicksilver anywhere from a 14-18 base defense, and again, use powers to boost Defense Values and use attack evaders such as Super Sense and ES/D, or special powers and traits. And to boost his ability to avoid attacks... he'll have a healthy movement rate to not only reflect his movement, but also his ability to stay out of danger's way.

I hope these explanations give you an understanding of how I think about HeroClix game design and balance.

Terminator, thanks for posting the great question! Rep given for making me defend my position, and raising thought-provoking conversation.

Thanks for asking but suffice it to say...no. But I do hope you had a pleasurable chanukah.

Not going to quote all of this but in summation you agree with Slade and I (not to put words in your mouth Slade it just seems we share a similar theory) in that the DV do not purely indicate how hard it is to hit someone.

If Defensive Value are what gauge hit and miss what is Super Senses for?

All I am saying is that stats, attack, damage, defense, etc... aren't purely what they are called. Meaning attack values aren't only about one's skills in combat, be in ranged or melee. For example the Flash (KC version in particular) has never been considered the most skilled of combatants. Yet he got a 12. Why? He is fast.

heck even you state...

This has nothing to do with evasion. He stands there and lets people hit him.

So what does that *points up* have to do with his ability to dodge attacks?

But he runs in a straight line. Not hard to hit...AT. ALL.

My point stands. I do not, in way, shape or form believe that the values present on the dials are in any way stagnant. They reflect so much more than they would seem to.

Super Speed = +, +, +, + as well as the addition of powers like ES/D, Super Senses, PC, HSS, Shape Change, etc...

Super Strength = +, +, + as well as the addition of powers like Super Strength (SURPRISE!), Close Combat Expert, Quake, Leap/Climb, Invulerability, Impervious, Toughness, etc...

A whole lot things are factored into each figures stats. Perhaps the only two stats that can be considered "stagnant" would be Range and the number of . But even those can be argued.

We have the basic theory in common (Slade and I), but we have varying viewpoints on how those numbers and powers should be assigned.

yeah basically we sort of agree, His hulk is an outside of the box hulk using a different system. I like what he was going for, I just think it changes too many standards that have been established in the game.

extremely accurate. love that he has the low defense. i do think he is overcost by 200 points though

I've always been an against the grain, think out of the box, upset the status quo type of guy.

I just can't wait to playtest him, and see how he actually plays in the game.

Thank you for the comments and kind words. I was going for the most accurate Hulk I could, and I'm a huge believer that Hulk should never, ever, exceed a 16 Defense Value.

For the points... this is still the beta version of the Hulk. I'll be in the process of playtesting him, and after some extensive testing during games, his point total may vary depending on how he performs.

I gotta make sure he is balanced for the final points I eventually assign him. He shouldn't be unbeatable and too powerful, but he also has to be able to feel and play like the Hulk. A team of 500-600 Point Avengers should struggle to take him down.

I'm playing HeroClix here in a bit. I may get a chance to beta test the Hulk tonight after our games that we have planned.

If I do, which I think we'll have time, play the Hulk, I'll post all relevant information:

What team I played against
Map played on
Results of the game
etc.

I'm curious to see how this 532 point Incredible Hulk plays. Of course, it will take several games playing several people to get through the beta testing phase, but I have high hopes for him.

I got a chance to play this Incredible Hulk dial twice yesterday. The first two beta testing games were disastrous for the Hulk. But my opponent did have 3 figures to one, and had a 50+ point advantage on the Hulk.

What is the best way to beta test this Hulk? Why, baptism by fire of course. Have him face three opponents that completely, for the most part, nerf his Trait.

We played 600 Points, No Feats or BFCs. Special Objects could be used. Both games were played on the Battle Square map.

The first game, Hulk only got to attack twice, and his two attack rolls were BOTH critical misses. Hulk was decimated in a matter of turns.

The second game didn't go much better, but Hulk actually did some damage, but was decimated rather quickly.

I took the data from the 2 beta test games and modified Hulk's dials and powers a bit. When I get a chance, I'll be beta testing him some more until he is playable, but very well game balanced.

At the end of this thread, I've posted the Ver. 1.1 beta dial, and the newly improved Ver. 1.2 beta dial.

Initial beta test results: Hulk failed to perform like the Hulk due to his defensive Trait completely being nerfed this game. But that is what beta testing is for. Also, Leap/Climb was pretty much a wasted power for the Hulk considering he's a If his Giant Stride is countered, he still has Leap/Climb, but is it really worth paying for Leap/Climb the whole dial when it is rarely going to be used? I answered no, and took Leap/Climb off, giving him normal Charge instead of the Charge / L/C combo. I also tweaked his numbers a bit, increasing a few of his combat values, but only ever so slightly, to more accurately represent the Hulk. Also, I lowered his point cost from 532 points to 528 points. My goal is to get him perfected at 500 Points even.

My opponent used:

Atrocitus (DC 75th)
Doomsday (DC 75th)
Zzzax (Mutations & Monsters)

Let's take a look how each of those figures nerfed Hulks Trait:

Atrocitus:
BURN THROUGH DEFENSES: When Atrocitus attacks a character that's using Impervious, this turn that character uses Invulnerability instead. When Atrocitus attacks a character that's using Invulnerability, this turn that character uses Toughness instead.

Turned Hulk's special trait of Impervious into Invulnerability, so no 4-6 roll for Hulk to reduce damage to 0.

Doomsday:
THE DEATH OF SUPERMAN: At the beginning of the game, choose an opposing character. Doomsday deals penetrating damage to that character this game. If the chosen character is named "Superman" or possesses the Superman team ability, modify Doomsday's damage value by + 1 when attacking that character.

This is the power that really screwed the Hulk. It completely nerfed his trait, and with Doomsday's high attacks, he made easy work of the Hulk.

Zzzax:
Exploit Weakness & Pulse Wave

Zzzax's Pulse Wave and Exploit Weakness completely nerfed Hulks trait as well.

Here is the new dial, with the older dial underneath it:

#408 - Unique Incredible Hulk Beta Dial - (Version 1.2)
Range: 0
Team: No Affiliation
Points: 528
Keywords: Brute, Monster

10 10 15 5

10 10 15 5

10 11 16 6

9 11 16 6

9 10 16 5

9 9 15 5

8 9 15 4

8 9 15 4

7 8 14 4

8 10 14 5

7 8 13 4

KO KO KO KO

You No Hurt Hulk! - Incredible Hulk can use Impervious, but succeeds on a roll of 4-6. Treat penetrating damage dealt to Incredible Hulk as regular damage instead. Hence, Incredible Hulk still uses Impervious against those attacks.

Puny Human No Run Away - (Charge)

Hulk Smash Puny Human - Incredible Hulk can use Quake and Super Strength.

You Make Hulk Angry! - (Regeneration)

Get Outta Hulk's Head! - When Incredible Hulk is the target of a successful Mind Control attack roll a d6. On a result of 5 or 6 Incredible Hulk ignores that use of Mind Control.

#408 Unique Incredible Hulk - (Beta 1.1 Version)
Range: 0
Team: No Affiliation
Points: 532
Keywords: Brute, Monster

10 10 15 5

10 10 15 5

10 10 15 5

9 11 16 6

9 9 15 5

9 9 15 4

8 9 14 4

8 9 14 4

7 8 14 4

8 10 13 5

7 8 13 3

KO KO KO KO

You No Hurt Hulk! - Incredible Hulk can use Impervious, but succeeds on a roll of 4-6. Incredible Hulk ignores opponent's Penetrating/Psychic Blast.

Puny Human No Run Away - Incredible Hulk can use Leap/Climb and Charge.

Hulk Smash Puny Human - Incredible Hulk can use Quake and Super Strength.

You Make Hulk Angry! - (Regeneration)

Get Outta Hulk's Head! - When Incredible Hulk is the target of a successful Mind Control attack roll a d6. On a result of 5 or 6 Incredible Hulk ignores that use of Mind Control.

View dial at the Dial Maker

With the changes, he's immune to all forms of penetrating damage, not just Penetrating/Psychic Blast, but also Exploit Weakness, and any and all special powers and traits that grant penetrating damage.

However, Incredible Hulk is still susceptible to the Meteorite special object, Atrocitus' Burn Through Defenses special power, and of course Pulse Wave still ignores his trait.