Imagine how fans of the original X-Men series felt when they picked up Giant Size #1 and X-Men #94.

Actually, that one didn't bother me.

Rynth, I feel your pain. I quit comics about 11 years ago, because it seemed that every comic that I followed was buying the farm. And nothing stepped up to fill its space. However, I got into wargaming about that time. Hence, my interest in MK and HC. But, I still don't see many comics that have any kind of allure for me. Or, at least, enough to make me want to get back into comics. I will settle for my fond memories of the days when a writer could really experiment, no matter how dumb or odd the idea was, they needed the stories to fill space. (My first comics were from the late 60's/ early 70's.)

I think the issue with new x-men is less an issue of ultimazation bleeding through so much as a fairly standard change in creative teams. morrison went a little farther than alot of writers would when taking over an existing books. But whenever creative teams change plot threads get dropped, character persona's change, lineups change. I think whats happened with new x-men is more a case of marvel just giving a new writer more control and freedom.

I'd discount any rumors that marvel is thinking of dropping the original universe in favor of the ultimate universe. I don't think anything in their behavior suggests it. Especially the way they've expanded everything but the ultimate universe lately.

I reall enjoy the ultimate books, mostly because I don't look at them as a redefinition of existing characters so much as new characters with new stories (some of which may be inspired from older ones) I think the ultimate universe is the one thing marvel has done mostly right in the past few years. They've kept it small, they've had consistent creative teams (and for the most part good ones, Bendis is great, Millar's time on authority shows he's well suited for the Ultimates, less so for the x-men), and they've given it a consistency that isn't present in the real marvel universe (things like mutant issues turn up in spiderman etc) I think the one thing marvel messed up is that they should have taken steps to make easier to jump from the ultimate line to the real marvel universe.

Alas, but is appears true. They only want your money....

I do... I have thousands of back issues of both Marvel and DC. It is just turns my guts to see Hal and all of Marvel treated thusly...



Create!?! I don't think the folks at Marvel these days can do that. It sure doesn't appear like they can...



Actually most were excited to see a new team and a new non-reprint storyline. I have been reading comics since 1971!

Hooray! I so agree!!! The new Hourman rocks! Wally West the current Flash and Former Kid-Flash is having a great run (pun), and I like the new Dr. Mid-night and Sandman too. Jay and Alan are still the core of the JSA and the mix is awsome!!!!

Also, when the villains are gone for awhile, you tend to see them again years later and remember a great story and cool... I gotta read this!!!



Agreed, I still don't like Legion, but at least it is only one title and I can choose not to read it and not have to give up on the whole Line. After all, there are those that do like it and I am glad they have it, but I want some of my favs for myself too..... But with Marvel it is just spreading through their entire line. I am glad DC is doing well with most of their stuff. It makes it easier to leave one habit for another...

I wouldn't... Marvel stated from the very beginnig that the plan was to go completely to the "New" Ultimates titles and universe. This was talked about by Marvel and their reps as the plan for about 18 months. It wasn't until they had a change in editor and they recieved thousands of pieces of mail from disgrunteled fans that they put it "on hold". And it is just "on hold". Marvel has, as stated earlier started bleeding the ultimates theme and ideaology over into what is left of the MU...

I for one resent the idea of a gradual change is all they need to accept our ideas. What does marvel think we all are?? Frogs in a pot of slowly boiling water??

Sorry about all the quotes, but it had been a while and I wanted it to clear what I was referring to...

They lost/removed (I don't know which) Gail Simone as the writer. With the amount of dialogue that spews out of Deadpool's mouth (and we all can admit it's DEADPOOL), the book is VERY writer-sensitive. The tone is easily disrupted and almost as easily lost entirely. When I think about the bad stuff that Christopher Priest and then Jimmy *shudder* Palmiotti turned out on the original series, I'm glad that Agent X has had such a quick response time in getting cancelled. The latest issue was not up to snuff by a far cry.

Have a Great Day,
Gary E. Poisson

Well guys, there's always DC ..... Muhahahahahahaha!!!!

I mostly read the Bat titles, which are consistantly great.

But I too, understand the problems with Marvel. I stopped reading Marvel years ago. The X guys burned me out, for reasons that everyone has stated, the Avengers eventually ran out of good stories, and I gave up Spidey after the horrible Maximum Carnage. My sadness at that loss was only mitigated by my joy in not having to read any of the "Clone" carp.

But Batman. He's never let me down. The Bat titles don't really fill quite the same niche in my soul that the 70's and 80's Xmen did, or Spiderman, and doesn't necessarily evoke the same childish glee that "Avenger's Assemble" still manages. But they still tell great stories in the Bat titles. They take risks, they evolve the character, his environment and his supporting cast. Thought and creativity goes into his books.

I recommend them to anyone.

I think that all comics that are of a certain age will have continuity propblems, unless written prpoerly (like Valiant where a date was given in which the story happened) and after a while, things get messy. DC did Crisis, Marvel is doing Ultimates. this way, you can please both groups. I always saw the Ultimates as a what if type universe where these heroes all appeared today, not in 1960. I personally love it. I read regular and ultimate books. they both satisfy different parts of my being ;-)

Wait a minute, They are canceling X-Statix, Weapon X, and Agent X. This is complete and utter BS. I now completely and utterly hate Marvel. Those are my 3 favorite boks to read and they are getting canceled. I also read the ultimates line but that won't be enough!

I WANT MY X-STATIX BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm pretty sure that statement you are quoting was made sarcastically. Marvel isn't going to cancel New X-Men as it still outsells the Ultimate line. Soldier X and Agent X have definitely had the plug pulled, not certain about the fate of Weapon X. I'm pretty sure any rumors about X-Statix have already been debunked though. The series is going on hiatus for a couple of months while the Wolverine/Doop book is coming out, then will return and continue.

If Marvel was really going to ultimatize everything I think we would have seen it by now. Jemas and Quesada like to throw a lot of disinformation and vague rumors around, but I have yet to see a Marvel figure officially confirm that the line would shift to being all-Ultimate. If this was the case then why would so much effort be spent on revamping books like Captain America and the Hulk, why would they be introducing tons of new stuff like the Tsunami line of titles, etc. The only real news I've seen about the Ultimate line taking over has come from rumor columns and most of the talk there has died down also.

Can you point to any sources? I'm curious now cause I everything I've read has been a steady stream of denials that was ever the plan. I mean I've heard rumors which were usually followed by a denial from one source or another and the denials while not necessarily straight from marvel always seemed more reliable than the rumors.

I also haven't seen much of the ultimazation bleed through into the original marvel universe. I think New X-men is about as far from being an ultimate book as it is from being the book it was before morrison took over. I've heard alot of good things about some recent spiderman stories, daredevil is good (and while I have no grasp of the classic version, he doesn't seemed like an ultimazation of one). I've heard good things about avengers, fantastic four,and thor as well.

From my view point (admittedly fairly limitted), I really don't see much evidence of an ultimazation of the marvel universe. Also I think the latest round of books being released by marvel looks like a push for the classic marvel universe not the ultimate one. They're pushing the Tsunami line at new readers to attract them to characters drawn from the original marvel univerese. I think they're doing a poor job of it, but it seems to be the goal. The ultimates are still waiting for that 4th ongoing book.

Now I came back to reading marvel pretty late in this whole ultimazation thing so its probable I missed some the earlier leaked info on the issue.

Ok, not sure if I really made my point well enough with the All New All Different X-Men example, so I'll try to elaborate. The original X-Men series focused on Cyclops, Angel, Beast, Iceman and Marvel Girl and tended to be more focused on their roles as students of Xavier. As times changed and the characters grew older there was some variation, but basically the core premise of the series stuck. Then a bit later you have all of these new characters coming in and replacing 3 of the original 5 characters. Now new characters like Banshee, Wolverine, Colossus and Storm were running around, all significantly different than those they replaced. Within a few years Jean was out as well, leaving only Cyclops from the original X-Men group. The book was no longer so much about training young mutants as it was fighting for a place in a world that hates and fears them. Flash forward another few years and none of the original team remained.

The funny thing is that the original X-Men run was never a success by any means. As you stated, for awhile it was just a reprint book so that Marvel could save the expenses of paying creators for new stories. Then when Claremont and friends shifted the tone of the book and cut out a lot of the original team the book started to take off. Claremont would continually evolve this group to the extent of getting rid of Professor X and having more of the characters replaced again. Despite these changes X-Men was always able to maintain an audience, even though readers will always debate as to which era was the greatest. Some will say the original group, some will say the Byrne/Claremont era, some will say the Claremont/Lee era, and some misguided souls might even say the Lobdell era. (/sarcasm)

The point I'm taking way too long to make here is that every comic property goes through significant changes, sometimes even under the run of one creative team. Unless you are pointing to the very original stories by the original creators it's really an unfair statement to say they took your (speaking in general terms here, not at any one person) character(s) away. I can relate to those who are Hal Jordan fans and dislike Kyle, but everytime you state that "Hal is the one true GL" remember that there was this guy with blonde hair and a red shirt that came long before there was a Hal. Comics are going to change over time and the longer you read the more titles you will most likely drift away from. Hopefully these titles will end up in a place you enjoy down the line and if not then hopefully you will find new titles which you can love just as strongly. Just remember, every run on every comic is going to have a group of fans who love it as much as you did at one point.

First, Marvel has publicly stated they have no intention of "Ultimizing" the entire MU, in fact they aren't making an Ultimat Fantastic Four because Mark Waid's run on the book is attracting so many readers.

And your comparison between Ultimate X and New X is slightly off base. The charecters are different in both books. In New Cyke is dark, in Ultimates he is a goody. In New Beast is kind of bitter, In Ultimates Beast is lovable and is hopefully going to have his relationship with Storm blossom. I can bring up more.

And your example of Superman killing people while bla bla bla, DC would call that an Elseworlds title. Marvel would call it a What If?. Ultimate titles are essentially played out What If?s

And I know what you mean about titles getting progressivly worse, I'm a hardcore Ghost Rider fan (check the sig), I don't wish any title to go through what that one went through near the end.

I don't think the Ultimate Titles are really seeping into the MU so much as you think. But that's my view on it. If you would like to analyze my pull list: The End, Ultimate Spider-Man, Ultimate X-Men, The Ultimates, JSA, Y: The Last Man.

I don't know if that helps any.

TychesCoin I don't have the papers anymore, but for about six months a couple of years ago or so, they (Meaning Marvel and their writers and Editors) spoke of it in interviews and articles that were written about it in the CSN! and the reason they ended the Captain America title and restarted it then was to make Cap an Ultimates line. The cap in the title "Captain America" has not been the same Cap in the first 64 issues of "Avengers". And the Captain America title before that was popular and selling and was the same Cap as in Avengers. They Cancelled it and much of the pencil work was redone because many people did not want the Ultimates Cap. So in effect you have an Ultimates Cap in a title not called an Ultimate Title. Why do a restart after they had just done a restart with the "Heroes Reborn" thing? The whole reason they killed them off was to remove them from the existing universe and relaunch them. It didn't work! So they Came back. Cap, Iron Man, Thor, and the Avengers were doing fine. Then came ultimates. They cancelled Cap's book which was popular and he became a more ultimates style character. The plan was to do that with the entire MU, but it wasn't the success they thought and Quaseda put the whole plan "on hold" when he looked at the over all sales for the ultimates vs the mainstream MU titles like Iron Man and Avengers. This is from articles and interviews in the CSN!. The Writers and Artists where upset and so they have set about making the MU characters more like the Ultimates. Look at Thor how his look and attitude have changed.

Now I know the the characters and teams will change significantly over time. I know I have been here for a while and watched it happen. But when you have characters doing things that go against their values and personalities then the change is not good and makes many readers say BS. A good example is the whole Peter Parker/Mary Jane divorce situation. Peter is and always has been the biggest family oriented individual in Marvel Comics. The whole premise of that storyline has been bogus. (I may not buy these books but I keep up with what is going on, hoping it will get better.)

When they redid his origin a while back he got a computer instead of a microscope. Now I know computers or the thing now and oh so cool. But peter was always more interested in biology than anything so it made sense. Now he has a computer to play games on. oooooooo..... So much fo biology......

TychesCoin I don't have the papers anymore, but for about six months a couple of years ago or so, they (Meaning Marvel and their writers and Editors) spoke of it in interviews and articles that were written about it in the CSN! and the reason they ended the Captain America title and restarted it recently was to make Cap an Ultimates line. The cap in the title "Captain America" has not been the same Cap in the first 64 issues of "Avengers". And the Captain America title before that was popular and selling and was the same Cap as in Avengers. They Cancelled it.

Much of the pencil work was redone on teh ultimates Cap sketches and pencil art because many people did not want the Ultimates Cap. So in effect you have an Ultimates Cap in a title not called an Ultimate Title. Why do a restart after they had just done a restart with the "Heroes Reborn" thing? The whole reason they killed them off was to remove them from the existing universe and relaunch them. It didn't work! So they Came back. Cap, Iron Man, Thor, and the Avengers were doing fine. Then came ultimates. They cancelled Cap's book which was popular and he became a more ultimates style character. The plan was to do that with the entire MU, but it wasn't the success they thought and Quaseda put the whole plan "on hold" when he looked at the over all sales for the ultimates vs the mainstream MU titles like Iron Man and Avengers. This is from articles and interviews in the CSN!. The Writers and Artists where upset and so they have set about making the MU characters more like the Ultimates. Look at Thor how his look and attitude have changed.

Now I know the the characters and teams will change significantly over time. I know I have been here for a while and watched it happen. But when you have characters doing things that go against their values and personalities then the change is not good and makes many readers say BS. A good example is the whole Peter Parker/Mary Jane divorce situation. Peter is and always has been the biggest family oriented individual in Marvel Comics. The whole premise of that storyline has been bogus. (I may not buy these books but I keep up with what is going on, hoping it will get better.)

When they redid his origin a while back he got a computer instead of a microscope. Now I know computers or the thing now and oh so cool. But peter was always more interested in biology than anything so it made sense. Now he has a computer to play games on. oooooooo..... So much fo biology......

First off, I remember when the Cap book was being relaunched and at no point was it ever referred to in any official press release or interview as being an Ultimate book. It was always included as part of the Marvel Knights line (which pre-dates the Ultimates line) and definitely has taken a more edgey look at the character. The stories still take place in continuity unless I missed something along the way.

bizarrome,
thanks for the info. I returned to reading marvel only over the past year or so. So I probably missed much of what you are talking about. I still don't see much evidence that it is on marvel's radar at all anymore.

for the record the onslaught storyline/heroes reborn thing is what originally drove me away from the marvel books. I think part of the reason marvel has been restarting books is that they really love the concept of #1 issues. Its typically one of the higher selling issues of a series, so I'm sure taking a stable series and restarting with a new number 1 issue seemes like a good idea. Marvel (and i'm sure dc to some degree) sells based on the characters to a degree that at least rivals the quality of the work. If a captain america series is selling well, and they're planning on bringing in a new creative team for whatever reason, they expect to keep much of the old readership and by restarting they expect to get atleast a temporary influx of new readers.

They know they can pull some drastic stunts to try to increase readership and still maintain a large proportion of the loyal fans. They know they can do something weird with spiderman (clone saga) and recover by returning to status quo if it doesn't take. AoA in the x-books was a bit of risk, not a huge one since the plan was always to return to the original (though there were rumors to the contrary at the time)

I'll admit I don't have any direct experience with the original marvel universe's thor, but the bits of things I've read from reviews make the current take on the character sound very different from the ultimate universe. Didn't thor have another personality issue when thundrestrike was running around?

I don't know much spider lore, but it seems a shift from biology to computers would be a fairly minor one. To alot of people the science thing mostly just established peter as a nerd before he became a super hero. computer still does that in a much more updated way. Part of the problem with comics is the bizarre sense of time passage. eventually some of the older things just run out of usefulness when appealing to new readers. I don't see how the change at all affected the values/persona of the character. It jut updated an aspect to something younger readers who grew up with computers can relate to easier

On peter/mary jane front, I've heard they're getting back together.

I'll agree that marvel has made a lot of bad decisions. There's a reason the number of marvel books I read ranks behind DC, Image and some months dark horse. I just don't see the ultimate universe as a source of any of these mistakes. Its a good idea thats been well executed, (not least so because they've kept it separated from the core mu and haven't replaced anything.) Someday so fool marvel editor or something will get the idea for a crossover or something and ruin both sides of the line but for the moment things are ok.

I think alot of the changes people are having problems with is marvel is recognizing that to get the top writers and keep them on a book to maintain consistency for a while they have to give them more control than they have in the past. Its not necessarily enough to just pay them more money.